The Eagle has landed.

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
GnosticMind
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by GnosticMind »

Why do those lay people and monastics feel the need to squat on the ground like subservient nursery school children or like serfs in fear of their feudal lords in the 15th century?

I understand that is a cultural convention in rural Laos -- that is their own culture to deal with -- why is it necessary to transplant that to rural Hertfordshire in 20th century England, and why isn't Sumedho telling them to get up off their backsides?

It lacks dignity for an adult -- Sumedho and the grovelers-- to behave in such a manner.

If Sumedho is a wise man - why does he expect other perfectly intelligent adults to do it?

Would we behave that way in front of other wise men?

And some say squatting and bowing is a skillful means in overcoming ego -- if that is the case, why isn't Sumedho bowing before them?
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Dan74
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by Dan74 »

GnosticMind wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:25 pm Why do those lay people and monastics feel the need to squat on the ground like subservient nursery school children or like serfs in fear of their feudal lords in the 15th century?

I understand that is a cultural convention in rural Laos -- that is their own culture to deal with -- why is it necessary to transplant that to rural Hertfordshire in 20th century England, and why isn't Sumedho telling them to get up off their backsides?

It lacks dignity for an adult -- Sumedho and the grovelers-- to behave in such a manner.

If Sumedho is a wise man - why does he expect other perfectly intelligent adults to do it?

Would we behave that way in front of other wise men?

And some say squatting and bowing is a skillful means in overcoming ego -- if that is the case, why isn't Sumedho bowing before them?
It's not about Sumedho, the man, it's about what he represents to his audience. For some, a kind of an authoritarian father figure, they are still battling against. For others, the Dhamma and their capacity to awaken, that they show reverence to.

You can act proudly or humbly, show arrogance or reverence and respect. It's up to you. I don't think he would mind either way.

I recall years ago when a nun came to speak to our Buddhist society at the Uni and my friend, a very intelligent and feisty Srilankan woman prostrated before her. I was a bit shocked, to be honest. It's not something we often see in the West. Took a while for me to digest that.
Last edited by Dan74 on Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by Ceisiwr »

GnosticMind wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:25 pm Why do those lay people and monastics feel the need to squat on the ground like subservient nursery school children or like serfs in fear of their feudal lords in the 15th century?

I understand that is a cultural convention in rural Laos -- that is their own culture to deal with -- why is it necessary to transplant that to rural Hertfordshire in 20th century England, and why isn't Sumedho telling them to get up off their backsides?

It lacks dignity for an adult -- Sumedho and the grovelers-- to behave in such a manner.

If Sumedho is a wise man - why does he expect other perfectly intelligent adults to do it?

Would we behave that way in front of other wise men?

And some say squatting and bowing is a skillful means in overcoming ego -- if that is the case, why isn't Sumedho bowing before them?
I think it’s more of a problem for you than them. I’d behave in the same manner with no issue. It’s no different really to how I would get down on my knees for my Queen.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Sam Vara
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by Sam Vara »

GnosticMind wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:25 pm
It lacks dignity for an adult -- Sumedho and the grovelers-- to behave in such a manner.
I think the problem lies right there. If you assume that they are "grovelling", then it does in deed lack dignity. If you think it is done out of respect for the Triple Gem, then it looks very dignified.
If Sumedho is a wise man - why does he expect other perfectly intelligent adults to do it?
I don't think he expects them to do it, in the sense that he would be somehow offended if they didn't. But it is because of his wisdom that it happens.
Would we behave that way in front of other wise men?
Depends on who they were, and on the context. I prostrate myself to monastics if appropriate. When I met a saintly Archbishop of Canterbury, I asked for and received a blessing. Sometimes just a smile or a "thank you" acknowledges the wisdom in ordinary people I meet.
And some say squatting and bowing is a skillful means in overcoming ego -- if that is the case, why isn't Sumedho bowing before them?
He doesn't seem to have much of an ego! He does, however, bow to the Buddharupa, and acknowledges people with anjali.
GnosticMind
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by GnosticMind »

"It’s no different really to how I would get down on my knees for my Queen."

Why would you get down on your knees for the queen? I am puzzled by that. Why is she 'your' queen? The queen has no interest in us.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

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GnosticMind wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:29 am "It’s no different really to how I would get down on my knees for my Queen."

Why would you get down on your knees for the queen? I am puzzled by that. Why is she 'your' queen? The queen has no interest in us.
Because she is my sovereign, and as a Buddhist I should support monarchy. Plus I’m a monarchist anyway.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
GnosticMind
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by GnosticMind »

"I think the problem lies right there. If you assume that they are "grovelling", then it does in deed lack dignity. If you think it is done out of respect for the Triple Gem, then it looks very dignified."

Why does squatting on ones haunches show respect for Buddha Dhamma Sangha? Why would the triple gem expect it? Lower, higher...it's childish and authoritarian...

And, squatting on the haunches like that is from rural Laos and rural village feudal societies - I have no problem whatsoever with them doing it -- that is their way. It's not for me to say.

But Buddhism is a highly intelligent way -- why do Westerners have to import a feudal tradition from the forest of Laos, which is a highly hierarchical society, and it is most likely based on feudal fear -- why is it that none of these Ajahns bow down before the humblest Bhikkuni or Novice?

Why doesn't' Sumedho , Amaro , Sucitto et al, tell them to stop demeaning themselves? However wise I was -- I would never expect grown men and women to squat down that way -- what is it based on? Being physically lower than the other man, higher in the ranking -- why is 'lower-higher' a wise act? Why would a wise person expect it? it is a very Asian thing, rooted in feudalism and rural serfdom and Confucian and Brahmin caste influence -- I mean no disrespect by that -- have no argument about their doing so -- that has it's own place and it's up to them to do it or not.

But it's plainly demeaning to see 50 or 60 year old men, bowing to be lower than another older man.

Look at the great minds of history -- Kant, Spinoza, Descartes, Einstein, Newton, or in more current times, Chomsky -- would they demand to be acknowledged so? If they did -- people would laugh or not take them seriously.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by Ceisiwr »

GnosticMind wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:39 am
Why doesn't' Sumedho , Amaro , Sucitto et al, tell them to stop demeaning themselves?
It’s not demeaning to them, nor in general.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
GnosticMind
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by GnosticMind »

"He does, however, bow to the Buddharupa, and acknowledges people with anjali"

Well there's a hierarchy right there -- Sumedho bows low to an albeit aesthetic and frequently beautiful artistic object, a Rupa -- but he won't bow low to another flesh and blood being -- but -- he expects them to bow to him.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by Ceisiwr »

I just can’t imagine thinking I am on equal footing with Ajahn Sumedho or Her Majesty, or the Buddha who I would also get down on the floor and “grovel” to. I’m just not that much of a narcissist.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
GnosticMind
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by GnosticMind »

"I just can’t imagine thinking I am on equal footing with Ajahn Sumedho or Her Majesty"

Why ever not man?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by Ceisiwr »

GnosticMind wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:47 am "I just can’t imagine thinking I am on equal footing with Ajahn Sumedho or Her Majesty"

Why ever not man?
Because Ajahn Sumedho’s wisdom dwarfs mine, whilst Her Majesty is the United Kingdom. She is the head of state, and an exemplar of worldly (and Christian) wisdom. The great unifier of all people within her realms, like the Dhamma is universally.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Sam Vara
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by Sam Vara »

GnosticMind wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:39 am "I think the problem lies right there. If you assume that they are "grovelling", then it does in deed lack dignity. If you think it is done out of respect for the Triple Gem, then it looks very dignified."

Why does squatting on ones haunches show respect for Buddha Dhamma Sangha? Why would the triple gem expect it? Lower, higher...it's childish and authoritarian...
Done correctly, bowing puts the head lower than the heart, symbolising that heart qualities such as devotion might be more useful than thinking it through. Bowing is just following a form that many people find helpful in their practice. There is no expectation that a lay person visiting Amaravati must bow; if they don't find it useful, they don't do it. Nobody cares.
squatting on the haunches like that is from rural Laos and rural village feudal societies - I have no problem whatsoever with them doing it -- that is their way. It's not for me to say.
Well, it's also the way of some Westerners. Why is that for you to say?
But Buddhism is a highly intelligent way -- why do Westerners have to import a feudal tradition from the forest of Laos, which is a highly hierarchical society, and it is most likely based on feudal fear -- why is it that none of these Ajahns bow down before the humblest Bhikkuni or Novice?
See above. Westerners do it because they feel it is a useful practice. Ajahns don't bow to Bhikkhunis or novices because that's not the tradition.
Why doesn't' Sumedho , Amaro , Sucitto et al, tell them to stop demeaning themselves?
Because they don't see it as demeaning, I guess.
Being physically lower than the other man, higher in the ranking -- is 'lower-higher' a wise act? Why would a wise person expect it?
If you think there is such a thing as wisdom, and that there can be differing amounts of it, then you have already established a ranking. Maybe - just maybe - the people bowing have got more wisdom than those criticising them for doing so...
Look at the great minds of history -- Kant, Spinoza, Descartes, Einstein, Newton, or in more current times, Chomsky -- would they demand to be acknowledged so? If they did -- people would laugh or not take them seriously.
They wouldn't, because although they are famous people, they do not engender the type of reverence consistent with bowing; although certainly Kant might after 1770 might have appreciated or even expected a stiff teutonic little bow, as well as the correct form of address. And Newton could be suspiciously paranoid and was very quick to take offence, so one would need to be on one's best behaviour in the Court at Trinity College.
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Sam Vara
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by Sam Vara »

GnosticMind wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:44 am "He does, however, bow to the Buddharupa, and acknowledges people with anjali"

Well there's a hierarchy right there -- Sumedho bows low to an albeit aesthetic and frequently beautiful artistic object, a Rupa -- but he won't bow low to another flesh and blood being -- but -- he expects them to bow to him.
Again, that's just the tradition, isn't it? People get into situations which involve expectations. Here on DW, for example, there is the expectation that we are courteous to one another. There is an expectation that when someone in my culture offers me a hand, I shake it; or that when they give me something, I say "Thank you". All of that might look ridiculous and demeaning if one wanted it to be so.
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Re: The Eagle has landed.

Post by confusedlayman »

GnosticMind wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:25 pm Why do those lay people and monastics feel the need to squat on the ground like subservient nursery school children or like serfs in fear of their feudal lords in the 15th century?

I understand that is a cultural convention in rural Laos -- that is their own culture to deal with -- why is it necessary to transplant that to rural Hertfordshire in 20th century England, and why isn't Sumedho telling them to get up off their backsides?

It lacks dignity for an adult -- Sumedho and the grovelers-- to behave in such a manner.

If Sumedho is a wise man - why does he expect other perfectly intelligent adults to do it?

Would we behave that way in front of other wise men?

And some say squatting and bowing is a skillful means in overcoming ego -- if that is the case, why isn't Sumedho bowing before them?
it maybe tradition
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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