What kind of people cannot become monks?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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dpcalder
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What kind of people cannot become monks?

Post by dpcalder »

I recall reading that certain "pandaka" individuals cannot become monks for sexual reasons, but I think I have also read that those in debt cannot. Is this also in the Pali Canon? Are there any other categories of people who cannot become monks? Also, what about people with chronic medical issues who need medication to keep their conditions in remission. Are monasteries able to help out with that? Finally, for those who cannot become fully ordained, is there a kind of "lay monk" category that falls short of being fully ordained but still allows you to stay at the monastery and meditate? If so, what, if any, restrictions would be present for such a person that an ordained monk would not be subject to?
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: What kind of people cannot become monks?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

I can only talk about monks, not nuns.
Some conditions for ordination that male novices are asked during the official ordination ceremony:
1. Do you suffer from leprosy?
If you do, answer 'Yes, Venerable Sir', if you do not, answer 'No, Venerable Sir'.
2. Have you got boils?
3. Have you got eczema?
4. Have you got tuberculosis?
5. Do you get epilepsy?
6. Are you a human being?
7. Are you a man?
8. Are you a free man? (This is the debt question I think.)
9. Are you free from government service?
10. Have you got your parents' permission to be ordained?
11. Have you a set of three robes and an almsbowl?
The health questions were to stop the monastery being overly burdened by people with difficult or expensive health needs. It's best to discuss this with the head of the monastery. For example I've seen the sangha ordain people with schizophrenia, people with cancer, people with other health needs which required them to visit the hospital twice a month, people who are transsexual (like the Thai kathoey), LGBT+ people, and soforth.
It depends a lot on the country, for example in some western countries the medical treatment is free so it's not trouble for the monastery.
I'll add more in a bit....
Last edited by JamesTheGiant on Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: What kind of people cannot become monks?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

dpcalder wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:15 pmFinally, for those who cannot become fully ordained, is there a kind of "lay monk" category that falls short of being fully ordained but still allows you to stay at the monastery and meditate? If so, what, if any, restrictions would be present for such a person that an ordained monk would not be subject to?
Yes, most monasteries in the West often have one or two laypeople who hang around and live there, but don't ordain. They ususally have to pay for their own medical bills and things though, so it's not for everyone. They are usually on 8 precepts.
Almost all monasteries I have visited are happy for lay-people to come and stay for a few years as laypeople, as long as they are energetic and can help with work around the place.
Other men who can't fully ordain, can still ordain as novices. To be a novice doesn't require all those previous rules I talked about. But some monasteries don't like to have perpetual-novices around, but some are ok with that.

All this depends on the particular monastery. For example some are very strict and appy the rules tightly, and its difficult to qualify.
Whereas others are quite generous and will ordain almost anyone as long as they loosely meet the minimum standards.
You need to make a relationship with a monastery, so you know their standards and get to know the monks who will be ordaining you. That's why I recommend anyone to stay for a month or two at the possible monastery, and talk in person with the senior monks.

All this is mostly relevant to monasteries in the West.
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confusedlayman
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Re: What kind of people cannot become monks?

Post by confusedlayman »

in addition to the above question,

I think someone can't ordain if they did patricide. matricide, killed arhant
, wounded buddha to point of blood or x abused female monastics .. even if they do get ordained by hiding above faults, they can't get any Fruits of noble attainments or even 1st jhana
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Mangaka
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Re: What kind of people cannot become monks?

Post by Mangaka »

Does it mean that those people who done this (last answer above) are trapped in samsara for ever? Is there any sutta about this part of teaching? I though everyone can attain enlightenment and Nibbāna.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: What kind of people cannot become monks?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Mangaka wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:29 am Does it mean that those people who done this (last answer above) are trapped in samsara for ever?
No, it's just for that one lifetime. Next life they can ordain.
Inedible
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Re: What kind of people cannot become monks?

Post by Inedible »

It isn't necessary to wait for the next lifetime even after having committed the five actions of immediate result. The Vajrayana and Dzogchen are still viable options without having to die and spend aeons in hell first. Still, we are talking about a lot of time reciting the one hundred syllable mantra of Vajrasattva and doing the visualizations. Over one hundred thousand repetitions per offense.
Mangaka
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Re: What kind of people cannot become monks?

Post by Mangaka »

I believe it falls into category of Pārājika am I right? Anyway... intention is important (like in many other cases). Intention is one thing and ignorance, accident etc. is second thing, if I understand correctly.
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