Ordination (pabbaja) for gays

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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MrKha
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Ordination (pabbaja) for gays

Post by MrKha »

Hello.
My first post in this forum, so, please, be gentle :D

I am more active in Mahayana. I studied Zen and Thien, but also am active in a Theravda pagoda near my house. I learned Pali at university and also read the Pali canon. I am familiar with the Theravda teachings. I have been considering to stay in a Theravada pagoda for some time (I mean, the consideration). I do not know if I want to become ordained. Just stay, at first.

A friend of mine is active in Dhammakaya. I know about the controversy of this school.

Anyhow, I looked into it and read their application form.

The first question is: Are you homosexual. Yes/No

And then they elaborate that homosexuals and pandakas cannot be ordained. They are, just not welcome. I could just check the "no", but I do not want to start my enlightenment path with a lie.

As a matter of fact...I am gay. I am living celibate, though - at least, the past six years. In Zen, there was no one caring about that stuff. And even in Thien, which follows the Theravada Vinaya (no sex for monks and uposatha-days), no one ever asked about or mentioned it.

Is that common in Thailand? I know many gays who got ordained. Being gay does not automatically mean actively gay. I know, monastery, many monks, male monks...I am not seeking "fun" there. If Dhammakaya does not want any gays, ok, I am good with that.

I live 40 minutes by plane from Bangkok, so I really wanted to realise my stay in a Thai pagoda. Not forever; some months. Are all pagodas that strict with this?

Please, I am not asking whether Dhammakaya is right, wrong, discrimating or other political in/correct stuff. It is their policy and they can do whatever I want. I have my own thoughts about it, but will not leave that here.

Thank you!
:namaste:
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Ordination (pabbaja) for gays

Post by JamesTheGiant »

MrKha wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:18 am Hello.
My first post in this forum, so, please, be gentle
Welcome!
Is that common in Thailand?
Maybe in Dhammakaya monasteries it's common? That application form is just wrong, and really bigoted.
You'll have no trouble finding a welcoming place to stay in Thailand. What country are you living in now?
Try the Ajahn Chah branch monasteries, they are sometimes better.
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DooDoot
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Re: Ordination (pabbaja) for gays

Post by DooDoot »

MrKha wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:18 am I learned Pali at university
Sawat dee krup :bow: . When I stayed at Suan Mokkh Monastery in Chaiya Surat Thani, there were obviously some ex-gay monks there.

Can you help with Pali here?

Thank you
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Ordination (pabbaja) for gays

Post by salayatananirodha »

dont ordain with them, even if you were straight
but gay does not mean pandaka
vinaya doesnt allow pandakas but it allows gays AFAIK
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Dhammanando
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Re: Ordination (pabbaja) for gays

Post by Dhammanando »

MrKha wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:18 am Is that common in Thailand?
No, it's uncommon.

Most monasteries go along with what is stated about pandakas in Buddhaghosa's Vinaya Commentary. According to this, although [what we nowadays call] "homosexuals" are a class of pandakas, they don't belong to that sub-class of pandakas who are prohibited to ordain.

Thai monasteries that prohibit the ordination of homosexuals tend to be ones where either the abbot is a traditionally raised ethnic Chinese (e.g., the late Ajahn Buddhadāsa) or where a large number of lay supporters are from the urban Chinese commercial or professional classes. Wat Dhammakaya would be an example of the latter.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Ordination (pabbaja) for gays

Post by Goofaholix »

There isn't a lot of difference between a celibate who is gay and one who is straight, maybe a bit more temptation in a monastery.

I know a gay many who ordained 24 years ago in the Thai forest tradition and now heads his own monastery.

There are more compelling reasons than this to avoid Dhammakaya.

I'd be surprised if you couldn't find somewhere better where this wasn't an issue.
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