Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

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Eko Care
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Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by Eko Care »

Please don't ask me where this story is mentioned in EBTs.
This is obviously later.
_____________________________________

I have(not seen but) heard this not only from one or two. It is generally believed by monks in the field. You can ask from your contacts and inquire before you believe.
_____________________________________

It is said among the forest monks and related upasakas that Bhikkhu Nanananda had accepted Abhidhamma and Sabbannu concept before he die, during his last days of life.

If it was the case then we can think that he was not confident about his rejection of Abhidhamma and other concepts but had tried to prove it to himself and others by preaching against the commentary for a long time.

Traditional monks think that it was good for him to accept Abhidhamma at least at the death bed. And he had a narrow escape.

He is still respected by other monks as a simple, virtuous, serious, and humble monk who didn't go after gain and influenced many people,

yet they believe him as a monk who preached with unnecessary accusations against commentary which dragged the minds of meditators out from faith.

Some say his Nibbana sermons with whirlpool similie are really a whirlpool which made others confused.

His teacher Ven. Maharaja rejected his views. Most of his peers did the same. One of his old student officially rejected him as the teacher.

Most of his student monks not follow him either and they haven't read his books at least upto outsiders did either.

But the overseas people can hardly see or understand this.

I'm saying this story because his followers have already been fed with unnecessary cherry picked accusations against commentaries which they can hardly unlearn.

If someone having pre-brain-washed and used to see the ancient teachers as enemies of them, then their minds always cherry pick a fault in commentaries.

We should be grateful to many modern teachers for providing us with whole lot of unnecessary doubts and views in order to proceed through this path.

There are many more stories about many other monks of same kind. But I am not going to tell them now.

Even though the teacher changed his views no one can now change the views arisen in the listener generation. It is still continuing...

Best regards.
Last edited by Eko Care on Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

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Apparently on his death bed Darwin converted to Christianity in the end :?
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by Eko Care »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:53 am
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:27 am The Buddha says that one should develop mettā towards all beings with the self-abnegating love of a mother to her only son.
But Venerable Buddhaghosa recommends a practice of mettā, which goes against the spirit of the Buddha word. What sort of Deliverance of the Heart can that kind of approach lead to?

In pervading the directions with thoughts of mettā one has to be aware of one’s position only as a peg in the center with which to survey the world as above, below and all around. Apart from that, the Buddha has never sanctioned a selfish attitude of developing mettā to oneself. The object of mettā is not a group of persons discriminated as one’s dear, not dear or neutral but the totality of living beings which the Buddha has presented as five universals.
Ven. Buddhaghosa says the same thing. He himself says doing metta to self will not lead to Jhana. What he says is having metta to self in the beginning is good as a point of reference to feel and understand how others prefer sukha over dukkha. And he says it is useful to check whether metta has developed up to the expected level. Nothing beyond that I think.

I know above idea is what ve. Nanananda spreaded all over the world and ven. Analayo supported.
Ven. Nananada's teacher ven. Nanarama rejected that view. Most of his students including ven. Dhammajiva rejected it, too.
Even some of ven. Nananada's students didn't accept. They all see no problem with Visuddhimagga.

Most of the forest monks in Sri lanka consider this as an attempt to cherry-pick the Visuddhimagga's mistakes.

Actually the reason behind ven. Nananada's criticisms against Visuddhimagga is not those points.
Reason is Ven. Nanananda had the "Namarupa and Sambhavesi ..etc" unothodox view because he learnt from Western monks since his young years.
Therefore he had to find out and present at least some faults of Visuddhimagga. (in the same way many others do)

You know what?
One day a meditator asked ven. Nananada ""How did bhante you develop metta?".
Ven. Nananada had replied "In the way ven. Buddhgosa said!".
befriend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:09 am If you hate yourself which is common in western society metta towards oneself is good. Buddha said you live for the benefit of yourself others and all beings. You are one of the beings in this world shouldn't you deserve happiness Karuna mudita upekkha too?
robertk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:47 am
8. First of all it should be developed only towards oneself, doing it repeatedly thus: “May I be
happy and free from suffering” or “May I keep myself free from enmity, affliction and anxiety
and live happily.”
9. If that is so, does it not conflict with what is said in the texts? For there is no mention
of any development of it towards oneself in what is said in the Vibhaòga: “And how does a
bhikkhu dwell pervading one direction with his heart filled with loving-kindness? Just as
he would feel loving-kindness on seeing a dearly loved person, so he pervades all beings
with loving-kindness” (Vibh 272); and in what is said in the Paþisambhidá: “In what five ways
is the mind-deliverance of loving-kindness [practiced] with unspecified pervasion? May all
beings be free from enmity, affliction and anxiety and live happily. May all breathing things
[297] … all who are born … all persons … all those who have a personality be free from enmity,
affliction and anxiety and live happily” (Paþis II 130); and in what is said in the
Mettá Sutta: “In joy and safety may all beings be joyful at heart” (Sn 145). [Does it
not conflict with those texts?]

CHAPTER IX
The Divine Abidings
293
10. It does not conflict. Why not? Because that refers to absorption. But this
[initial development towards oneself] refers to [making oneself] an example. For even if he
developed loving-kindness for a hundred or a thousand years in this way, “I am happy” and so on,
absorption would never arise[
/b]. But if he develops it in this way: “I am happy. Just as I want to be
happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings, too,” making himself
the example, then
desire for other beings’ welfare and happiness arises in him.


We have to look at the whole passage. It is simply reminding that as we want to be happy, so too others.
As Buddhaghosa says " “I am happy” and so on,
absorption would never arise
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:18 am As Eko Care says, the metta to oneself is a warm-up exercise, and this is clearly explained in the Visuddhimagga. I don't see any reason to be concerned that such warm-up exercises as extending metta to oneself or counting breaths are not specifically mentioned in a sutta. Noone is claiming that they have any particular Dhammic significance, any more than the length of a walking path, or the exact timing of sitting meditation. I also haven't found any suttas suggesting that I do some stretching so that I can sit comfortably. Should I stop doing that?

On the other hand, extending metta to particular people is mentioned in suttas, for example MN21:
Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn21/en/sujato

:heart:
Mike
Last edited by Eko Care on Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by sphairos »

Great, thanks for sharing it! Very believable!

Now I also have to accept Abhidhamma and commentaries unconditionally :lol: :lol: :lol: :clap:
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by Eko Care »

robertk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:49 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 am
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 am
  • So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana, Sambhavesi ..etc
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:34 am Greetings Eko Care,


Oh.

Are you saying SN 12.2 is anti-commentary view?



Is SN 12.67 anti-commentary view for regarding nama-rupa and vinnana as akin to two different sheaves of reeds rather than just one?

...
actually, eko care will you please answer this?
I don't know what Nanananda thought but the Commentaries explain that in the context of Paticcasamupada only three of the non-material aggregates are meant: XVII
1
87. 1. By analysis of mind and matter: here “mind” (náma—mentality) is the
three aggregates, that is, feeling, perception, and formations,
because of their
bending (namana) on to the object. “Matter” (rúpa—materiality) is the four great
primary elements and the materiality derived [by clinging] from the four great
primaries. Their analysis is given in the Description of the Aggregates (XIV.34f.,
In other contexts nama usually refers to the 4 immaterial aggregates (includes vinnana).
Example: XVIII 24
[
NO BEING APART FROM MENTALITY-MATERIALITY]
24. He defines the four immaterial aggregates that have thus become evident
through contact, etc., as “mentality.” And he defines their objects, namely, the
four primaries and the materiality derived from the four primaries, as
“materiality.” So, as one who opens a box with a knife, as one who splits a twin
palmyra bulb in two, he defines all states of the three planes,9 the eighteen
elements, twelve bases, five aggregates, in the double way as “mentalitymateriality,”
and he concludes that over and above mere mentality-materiality
there is nothing else that is a being or a person or a deity or a Brahmá.
Dhammanando wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:06 am
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:56 am Ven Nananada also uses "this this", but I never could understand his logic,
Right, I'd forgotten about him. I too don't understand his logic. In the first sermon of the first volume of The Law of Dependent Arising he states:
One might wonder why the statement has ‘this’ and ‘this’ where we expect to have ‘this’ and ‘that’ as ‘This being that comes to be’. There is a subtle point involved in this apparently awkward statement. The reason is that if we take up any couple of links in the twelve-linked formula of illustration of the Law conjoined by ‘paccayā’, such as for instance ‘avijja paccayā saṅkhārā’ (with ignorance as condition preparations), we have to say this being this arises. Only if we are referring to something outside the context, i.e. outside the couple of links we have taken up, we have to say ‘that’.
But to me the use of 'that' simply doesn't carry the implication of denoting a referent outside of the said links and it's a mystery to me why Ñāṇananda thinks it would.
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:56 amand wondered whether being a native Sinhalese speaker influenced his preference.
Possibly. To judge from the translations at Sutta Central, Sinhala translators do seem to favour using two "thises" (මෙය ... මෙය).
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:56 am It is said among the forest monks and related upasakas that Bhikkhu Nanananda had accepted Abhidhamma and Sabbannu concept before he die, during his last days of life.
Sounds like lies and propaganda from those embittered that his wisdom was cherished, and vehemently at odds with their own Sri Lankan sectarianism.

After your blatant lies about venerable Nanananda in this topic, your vendetta is getting rather sad, desperate and pathetic at this point... unless of course you actually have some evidence this time? Do you, or are you just slandering the good Bhikkhu with self-serving, unsubstantiated allegations?

:popcorn:

P.S. Does this lame propaganda actually influence anyone in Sri Lanka?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

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retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:30 am Sri Lankan sectarianism.
In the past, Buddhism nearly became extinct, maybe more than once, in Sri Lanka. Today, Sri Lankan monks are probably the worst disciplined in Southern Buddhism. The conceit of Sri Lankan Buddhism it it appears to believe it is the best, when, in reality, it appears to be the worst.
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:56 am It is said among the forest monks and related upasakas that Bhikkhu Nanananda had accepted Abhidhamma and Sabbannu concept before he die, during his last days of life.
On this forum, the Abhidhamma sectarians give the impression they have actually never read the Abhidhamma but merely read a few summaries. Its interesting to observe this type of "Identitarianism".
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DooDoot,

Yes. This does seem like a fairly blatant "face saving" exercise - an attempt for Sri Lankan sectarians to regain some ground now that the bhikkhu who outshone them all has passed and is no longer present to refute their Wrong Speech.

Either way, I'll wait for Eko Care to wheel in his non-existent evidence once more and beclown himself and his evangelistic cause with cheap rumour mongering.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by DooDoot »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:46 am the bhikkhu who outshone them all has passed and is no longer present to refute their Wrong Speech.
Since not reading his major works, i can't claim he understood the Dhamma fully. But if he did, the Buddha said it is "rare" there is a person that understands His Dhamma. Therefore, if the majority of Sri Lankan monks rejected him, this accords with the Dhamma about what is "rare". :smile:
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:56 am Abhidhamma and Sabbannu
sabbaññū : (adj.) all-knowing. (m.), the Omniscient . :lol:
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:56 amIf it was the case then we can think that he was not confident about his rejection of Abhidhamma and other concepts but had tried to prove it to himself and others by preaching against the commentary for a long time.
I am confident when i reject. Why don't you start a topic about some core or interesting Abhidhamma teachings and we can discuss them. I already confidently suggested the Abidhamma is rejectible about Dhp 1, for example, and also rejectible about 'sankhara' in dependent origination. Since the composers of Abidhamma have literally said they have distinguished between sutta-view (Suttantabhājanīya) and Abidhamma-view (Abhidhammabhājanīya), it appears they themselves acknowledged their differences to the Lord Buddha.

:buddha1:
The Book of Analysis (Vibhaṅga)

6. The Analysis of Conditional Origination (Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga)

1. The Section Derived from the Discourses (Suttantabhājanīya)

2. The Section Derived from the Abstract Teaching (Abhidhammabhājanīya)

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

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Even if this were true, I’m having trouble understanding what’s the motivation behind exposing it. No different than claiming an Abhidhamma loyalist renounced the text on their deathbed. This puts his entire life’s work into question. That is a heavy thing to participate in, and I surely do hope there is a good reason for doing this...even if that reason remains private. Because if for some reason this is not accurate and it dissuades even one person from benefiting from his work, that falls on those who are perpetuating it.

There are so many contemporary monks who I disagree with and Ven. Nanananda is one of them, but instead of trying to expose what I find not to be beneficial in their work, I simply spend my time discussing what I see as more beneficial.

This is a very tumultuous undertaking that I hope ends here.
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by sphairos »

I think in general what this poster illustrates is a religious attitude to Buddhism, suiting more (esp. fundamentalist) Christianity and Christians. Only a religious person may entertain such an argument -- "renounced on deathbed".

If you understand Buddhism as an ancient (but very modern) form of Art/Way of life, like ancient philosophies of Platonism, Cynicism, Stoicism etc, you would be Ok with someone practicing their Way of life in their own way -- reading more suttas, Abhidhamma, or neither.

And it's interesting from what he "converted". From heresy to True Faith ? :lol: From Buddhism to Buddhism?
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by Eko Care »

I think any careful observer can understand how a person with uncertain views which has been grasped tightly, reacts to others' observations.
SDC wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:37 pm This puts his entire life’s work into question. That is a heavy thing to participate in, and I surely do hope there is a good reason for doing this...even if that reason remains private.
People have to reconsider not only his but also this kind of modern view holders' teachings and opinions again.

What above story and more similar stories we get to know indicate is:

How modern people are very confident in believing radical uncertain views.

And how they become helpless and unconfident when the uncertainty bothers their mind when they are getting matured with age and understanding.


Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 am
robertk wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:21 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:44 am
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:55 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:45 am I want to know why ñāṇananda is so critical of visuddhimagga in his works but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it
  • Ven. Nananada had education in a British environment and Dhamma education in BPS environment.
  • He had ordained in Polgasduva and stayed with the company of famous Western monks for 5 years before coming to ven. Nanarama's place Nissarana vanaya.
  • So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana, Sambhavesi ..etc
  • All or most of the monks of Nissarana vanaya had opposed those views.
  • Other monks say that ven. Nanarama's soft way of administration was the reason for allowing ven. Nananada to preach those Nibbana sermons at Nissaranavanaya.
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:45 am but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it
Ven. nanarama had said the below to current abbot ven. Dhammajiva while bhikkhu Nananada was not present.

"If the critisizers of ven. Buddhagosa can understand that they don't possess at least one tenth of the knowledge and wisdom of ven. Buddhaghosa, they will never do that"
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

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It would be better to show how the commentaries are in agreement with the suttas rather than attack people in various ways for not believing them.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:22 amApparently on his death bed Darwin converted to Christianity in the end :?
That one was an obvious lie because we speak English and can investigate the claims. This one is harder to investigate for non-English speakers. I suspect it is not true, like the claim that Darwin renounced the theory of evolution and converted to evangelical Christianity towards the time of his death.

Evangelical Christianity in Darwin's time was actually a morally superior alternative to the liberalism of his day IMO. The liberals of Darwin's time were marginalists who believed in extreme laissez-faire capitalism. They opposed social services because the poor ought to pull themselves up by their bootstraps like Bootstrap Bill. "God rewards faith with material riches" was the Protestant motto of the day. "Survival of the fittest," the Liberal and Darwinist creed of the day. Evangelical Christianity used to be about advocating for social safety nets for the poor and social services. How times change.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhu Nanananda converted. Disciples did not.

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Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:58 pm I think any careful observer can understand how a person with uncertain views which has been grasped tightly, reacts to others' observations.
SDC wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:37 pm This puts his entire life’s work into question. That is a heavy thing to participate in, and I surely do hope there is a good reason for doing this...even if that reason remains private.
People have to reconsider not only his but also this kind of modern view holders' teaching s and opinions again.

What above story and more similar stories we get to know indicate is:

How modern people are very confident in believing radical uncertain views.

And how they become helpless and unconfident when the uncertainty bothers their mind when they are getting matured with age and understanding.

With all due respect, you speak as if you’re exempt from the same level of responsibility for your own views. How are your views any different? If you’re holding yours based on tradition then you’re sitting in the same boat.
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