Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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SDC
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by SDC »

My first exposure to Ven. Pannobhasa was his translation of the Aṭṭhakavagga, which I enjoyed. It was only a few years later that I learned of his overtly political views. To me, if that is what you take time to share with the the public, that is truly what you value above all else (even if you temper it or otherwise sugarcoat it with Dhamma). As far as I was able to tell, the world meant more to him than the freedom described by the Buddha, and I think this move is the best thing he could’ve made for his own well-being and that of the community, who look to monastics to set a tone of how to practice rightly. I wish him the best, but am relieved that what he says will no longer be coming from the Sangha.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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DooDoot
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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sphairos wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:09 pm They have very unconventional views sometimes on this site -- political and else.
What is "conventional" in the world is subject to constant change. For example, repression/suppression of free speech is now an accepted convention in the current world. This was not the convention say 50 years ago.
sphairos wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:09 pm For instance left, liberal, democratic ideology isn't at home here.
Possibly because they are not found in the suttas. In the suttas, society is to be governed by Dhammic principles, be it in a Monarchy (DN 26) or in a Republic (DN 16), rather than by the democratic whims of the political media brainwashed masses.
DN 31 wrote:(e) "There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in associating with evil companions, namely: any gambler, any libertine, any drunkard, any swindler, any cheat, any rowdy is his friend and companion.

Sigalovada Sutta: The Discourse to Sigala: The Layperson's Code of Discipline
Also, the worldly terms posted by Sphairos are inherently meaningless. For example, during the French Revolution, the "liberals" had the tendency to chop off people's heads using guillotines; similar to how today's "liberals" engage in "cancel culture" and censorship; or today there are democratic nations invading & destroying non-democratic nations in the name of democracy. Where as Dhamma is "fixed law" ("dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā"). Dhamma is the best. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

OK, time to get back to matters specifically pertaining to Pannobhasa, if indeed there's anything left to be said.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by JamesTheGiant »

At least he opened the dhamma to Trump supporters, conspiracy theorists, and various supremacists. That's useful.
The retreats I attend seem to be 100% left-wing, etc. While I'm further left than almost anyone I know, I think it's a real failing of "contemporary" western Buddhism that it's so unwelcoming to non-left ideologies.
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:47 am At least he opened the dhamma to Trump supporters, conspiracy theorists, and various supremacists. That's useful.
No, it's not useful. Because it will only lead to twisting of the meaning of the Dhamma. That demographic is not interested in truth. They are interested in reinforcing their own delusions.
The retreats I attend seem to be 100% left-wing, etc. While I'm further left than almost anyone I know, I think it's a real failing of "contemporary" western Buddhism that it's so unwelcoming to non-left ideologies.
If by non-left ideologies you mean conspiracy theories and white supremacists, then I'm quite happy to have them not feel welcome at any Dhamma event I attend. Tying this back to the venerable who is disrobing, having someone in robes pushing the Overton window so far to the right normalizes things that are antithetical to the Dhamma.

That the Dhamma events you attend may be populated by a narrow group of people is a different issue entirely, and a very legitimate one. If they are mostly wealthy white people, then I would bet any socially left leaning appearances are a thin veneer.
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Jgood
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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BKh wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:13 am
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:47 am At least he opened the dhamma to Trump supporters, conspiracy theorists, and various supremacists. That's useful.
No, it's not useful. Because it will only lead to twisting of the meaning of the Dhamma. That demographic is not interested in truth. They are interested in reinforcing their own delusions.
I disagree with this. In my personal experience, my initial interest in Dhamma and meditation began with my frequenting a "right-wing extremist" website. My first introduction to Dhamma was through reading Julius Evola's "Doctrine of Awakening." I started practicing meditation, then started following the 5 precepts. These things did not lead me to corrupt the Dhamma with ideology, but rather the practice of Dhamma has given me immunity to the virus of ideology (whether left or right).

I'm sure I'm not alone in this category. Plenty of people who are labelled "extremists" are interested in self-improvement. Giving them an introduction to pure Dhamma as a vehicle for self-improvement (the practice of meditation and the eventual adoption of the 5 precepts) does more good than harm, I think. While some people are indeed beyond salvation, there are others whose practice will allow them to take a step back from their beliefs.

Also, opinions today labelled "extremist" are not necessarily anti-Dhamma. If one is anti-feminist, for example, it does not necessarily mean that they are filled with greed, hatred, and delusion. Some people are led to politically incorrect opinions through rational consideration and/or experience. As long as one abides by the five precepts and honestly nurtures no anger or hatred towards any beings, honestly interested in the welfare of all beings, one is living in accordance with Dhamma, regardless of their opinions.
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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BKh wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:13 am If by non-left ideologies you mean conspiracy theories and white supremacists, then I'm quite happy to have them not feel welcome at any Dhamma event I attend....If they are mostly wealthy white people, then I would bet any socially left leaning appearances are a thin veneer.
The above clearly appears to be racism or what the Buddha called "agati" ("prejudice"). The suttas clearly show the Buddha consorted with the wealthy and said the ownership of wealth was from good kamma. Note: I personally am not a "white" person.
Jgood wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:10 pm If one is anti-feminist, for example, it does not necessarily mean that they are filled with greed, hatred, and delusion.
Feminism has zero equivalence to the Buddhist teachings. Feminism has no defined sexual morality, for example, and no equivalent precepts. Buddhism does not alienate the marital relationship in society.
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:47 am The retreats I attend seem to be 100% left-wing, etc. While I'm further left than almost anyone I know, I think it's a real failing of "contemporary" western Buddhism that it's so unwelcoming to non-left ideologies.
Actually, it is the left-wing orientation of Western Buddhism that is the real failing of Buddhism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Dan74 »

Jgood wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:10 pm
BKh wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:13 am
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:47 am At least he opened the dhamma to Trump supporters, conspiracy theorists, and various supremacists. That's useful.
No, it's not useful. Because it will only lead to twisting of the meaning of the Dhamma. That demographic is not interested in truth. They are interested in reinforcing their own delusions.
I disagree with this. In my personal experience, my initial interest in Dhamma and meditation began with my frequenting a "right-wing extremist" website. My first introduction to Dhamma was through reading Julius Evola's "Doctrine of Awakening." I started practicing meditation, then started following the 5 precepts. These things did not lead me to corrupt the Dhamma with ideology, but rather the practice of Dhamma has given me immunity to the virus of ideology (whether left or right).

I'm sure I'm not alone in this category. Plenty of people who are labelled "extremists" are interested in self-improvement. Giving them an introduction to pure Dhamma as a vehicle for self-improvement (the practice of meditation and the eventual adoption of the 5 precepts) does more good than harm, I think. While some people are indeed beyond salvation, there are others whose practice will allow them to take a step back from their beliefs.

Also, opinions today labelled "extremist" are not necessarily anti-Dhamma. If one is anti-feminist, for example, it does not necessarily mean that they are filled with greed, hatred, and delusion. Some people are led to politically incorrect opinions through rational consideration and/or experience. As long as one abides by the five precepts and honestly nurtures no anger or hatred towards any beings, honestly interested in the welfare of all beings, one is living in accordance with Dhamma, regardless of their opinions.
:goodpost:

One of the most pervasive delusions is the belief that people with differing political views are automatically more deluded than oneself.
_/|\_
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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''Evola stated that his work belonged to a long tradition of anti-democratic writers who certainly could be linked to fascism—at least fascism interpreted according to certain Evolian criteria—but who certainly could not be identified with the Fascist regime under Mussolini. Evola then declared that he was not a Fascist but was instead "superfascisti" (lit. 'superfascist')...Finding Italian fascism too compromising, Evola began to seek recognition in Nazi Germany. Evola spent a considerable amount of time in Germany in 1937 and 1938, and gave a series of lectures to the German–Italian Society in 1938...Evola admired Heinrich Himmler, whom he knew personally...Evola subsequently ascended to the inner circles of Nazism as the influence of pan-European advocates overtook that of Völkisch proponents... Evola was one of the first people to greet Mussolini when the latter was broken out of prison... Subsequently, Evola helped welcome Mussolini to Adolf Hitler's Wolf's Lair...Evola wrote in 1955 that the Nuremberg trials were a farce.[94] This indicates that despite being rejected by the SS before the war, he never stopped admiring their criminal activities...''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola#Fascism

Well -- that looks really compatible with Dhamma....doesn't it?

Now -- let's see who is who -- are the Dhammawheel boarders for these ideas -- or -- against them?

Come come, it should be easy to say so...no need to pussy foot around...

I am not slandering anyone -- a few posters here have said they are or were attracted to Evola. Pannobhasa seems pretty attracted to Evola too.

No slander -- they are proud of it -- so let's talk about it -- don't be shy.
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings GnosticMind,
GnosticMind wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:31 am Well -- that looks really compatible with Dhamma....doesn't it?
I just read a chronology of events. I didn't read anything about any doctrine or discipline.

Is this related to the topic of Ajahn Pannobhasa or is it off-topic?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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“There are monks who, after many years, give up their ordination
and change to other religions or marry their female students”, said
Pemasiri Thera. “It means that, in fact, they never had any faith”.
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/7c1caa ... ok-eng.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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GnosticMind wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:31 am ''Evola stated that his work belonged to a long tradition of anti-democratic writers who certainly could be linked to fascism—at least fascism interpreted according to certain Evolian criteria—but who certainly could not be identified with the Fascist regime under Mussolini. Evola then declared that he was not a Fascist but was instead "superfascisti" (lit. 'superfascist')...Finding Italian fascism too compromising, Evola began to seek recognition in Nazi Germany. Evola spent a considerable amount of time in Germany in 1937 and 1938, and gave a series of lectures to the German–Italian Society in 1938...Evola admired Heinrich Himmler, whom he knew personally...Evola subsequently ascended to the inner circles of Nazism as the influence of pan-European advocates overtook that of Völkisch proponents... Evola was one of the first people to greet Mussolini when the latter was broken out of prison... Subsequently, Evola helped welcome Mussolini to Adolf Hitler's Wolf's Lair...Evola wrote in 1955 that the Nuremberg trials were a farce.[94] This indicates that despite being rejected by the SS before the war, he never stopped admiring their criminal activities...''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola#Fascism

Well -- that looks really compatible with Dhamma....doesn't it?

Now -- let's see who is who -- are the Dhammawheel boarders for these ideas -- or -- against them?

Come come, it should be easy to say so...no need to pussy foot around...

I am not slandering anyone -- a few posters here have said they are or were attracted to Evola. Pannobhasa seems pretty attracted to Evola too.

No slander -- they are proud of it -- so let's talk about it -- don't be shy.
Well, "Doctrine of Awakening" is a genuinely good book- read with a grain of salt, I highly recommend it. The book was recognized by the Pali Society in London and was heavily influential to an early Western monk, Nanavira Thera, who had correspondence with Evola throughout his life.

When it comes to Evola (and pretty much any other historical figure), there is a simple rule of thumb: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. No one is perfect and people like Evola cannot be blamed for the company they kept who became "evil" in retrospect (and no doubt due to who won the second world war).
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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Nanavira Thera -- sorry to say - was traumatised by whatever horrors he saw in WW2 , fled to the forests of Sri Lanka, and lost his mind entirely, and committed suicide.

No disrespect to Nanavira personally -- the man must have been in agony -- but he's hardly the best representative of a Dhammic life. He was a tortured soul and a deeply sad, troubled and unhappy man. I read his books welll over thirty years ago.

Poor man -- Nanavira was tortured by sexual delusions he could no longer bear and killed himself alone in his hermit cell and was found by distraught Sri-Lankan devotees.

It's no advertisement for the Holy Life.

Christmas Humphreys and The London Buddhist Society -- I remember them well -- it's all so long ago now, but they were at one time, in the thrall of an occult form of Buddhism that was fashionable at the time, but is not considered reliable now.

Evola was a fascist -- if you like Evola, you are buying into that. There's no way round it.

If you are into Charlie Manson's 'philosophy' then you have to take all that comes with it -- the whole package.

Same with Evola. It's an occult path connected to extreme violence up to the present day in underground white power fascist groups from the old industrial towns of the north of England to Krakow to Hungary and Lithuania.

If that's your thing, go for it.

But it sure ain't my thing.

Violence isn't in the Suttas. It is in Evola and the neo nazi groups of Europe.

For as long as I remember, Evola, Junger, Eliade -- the 'dog whistle' crowd love them and love flirting and skirting around the real issues at the core of their thought. It's a kind of hobby for some people.

Walter Benjamin wrote some excellent essays on it. Highly recommended. He saw them for the danger they really were ( though personally, I'd count Junger and Eliade out of that, but the dog whistlers love all three of them for all the wrong reasons altogether, eg their earlier fascist incarnations - however, both Junger and Eliade had long distanced themselves from fascism after WW2 and were genuine academics and thinkers -- unlike Evola who remained an extremist his entire life )
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Jgood »

GnosticMind wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:19 pm
Evola was a fascist -- if you like Evola, you are buying into that. There's no way round it.
Margeret Sanger was a eugenicist-- if you support planned parenthood, you are buying into that. There's no way round it.
Last edited by Jgood on Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

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Why are you talking about Margaret Senger ( whoever she is ) we are talking about Evola.

I repeat - "For as long as I remember, Evola, Junger, Eliade -- the 'dog whistle' crowd love them and love flirting and skirting around the real issues at the core of their thought. It's a kind of hobby for some people."
Last edited by GnosticMind on Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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