Criminal Background

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Post Reply
bodhifollower
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:37 am

Criminal Background

Post by bodhifollower »

I have a criminal record for something unskillful I did a couple of years ago which landed me in jail for a couple months. It was classified as a felony although what I did really wasn't. The case was dismissed and I was free to go with no penalties at all. It wasn't very serious after all.

I wanted to know if this will hinder me from becoming a monk. I am afraid that I wouldn't be able to ordain in another country I live in the USA. Even in my country I fear I will not be allowed to ordain.

If anyone knows can they share some help.
User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 2147
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Criminal Background

Post by JamesTheGiant »

There is nothing in the monk's rules which will stop you from ordaining.
One of my best monk friends had been in jail for 6 years before he became a bhikkhu.
He went straight to the monastery after he was released, and asked to become an anagarika. Now he's been a monk for almost 10 years.

Interestingly, the Buddha ordained a serial killer!
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Criminal Background

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi James,

Thank you for clarifying that. I recall that you can't ordain to escape from the law, but that is not the same as having served time. Is that correct?

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Criminal Background

Post by confusedlayman »

if u really want to attain nibbana then go and ordain... if ur intention is pure and ur determination is strong (no double minded decision) then even brahma or mara cant stop u from ordaining
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 2147
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Criminal Background

Post by JamesTheGiant »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:50 am I recall that you can't ordain to escape from the law, but that is not the same as having served time. Is that correct?
That's correct. Although notorious and famous criminals were still usually banned, because they still had a big bad reputation even after serving their time. But the Buddha made exceptions here too.

This may be useful reading for Bodhifollower. The whole chapter may be useful for anyone intending to ordain.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0054.html
Those who should not be ordained, (chapter excerpt )

3) Disturbers of the peace. This category includes three types:

(a) A criminal “wrapped in a flag.” This, the Commentary says, means a notorious criminal. None of the texts mention this point, but this prohibition would seem to hold regardless of whether the person has served time for his crimes. The Commentary does note, however, that if he later becomes well-known for having mended his ways he may be given the Going-forth. If he is the king’s son, and it pleases the king that he go forth, he may. Minor criminals who have not been caught and have abandoned their criminal activity are not prohibited under this rule. This prohibition was inspired by the public reaction to Ven. Aṅgulimāla’s ordination (see MN 86). This is one of several instances in the Canon where the Buddha acted in ways that he forbade to his disciples, on the grounds that he could foretell the consequences of his actions but couldn’t trust his disciples—even the arahants—to have the same degree of foresight.

(b) A suspect or criminal for whom a warrant has been sent out. At present this would also include people on probation or parole.

(c) A criminal who has broken his shackles, i.e., escaped from prison or other internment. The Commentary notes that if the escapee is not a criminal but has simply been confined by the authorities to force him to comply to their wishes, he may receive the Going-forth. If he has been falsely accused and escapes, he should not go forth in that country, but may do so elsewhere. It is interesting to compare this judgment with the Commentary’s recommendations concerning children of slaves. Here the Commentary is willing to defy unjust applications of civil law, but it never challenges civil law itself, no matter how unjust.

4) Those marked with severe punishments. The Canon mentions two sorts of applicants here:

(a) A person who has been whipped or caned as a punishment. The Commentary extends this prohibition to other forms of beating as well—such as being hit with the elbows, the knees, coconuts, or rocks. The applicant may be given the Going-forth after the wounds have healed and bruises have subsided.

(b) A person who has been branded or tattooed as a punishment. Again, the applicant may be ordained after the wounds have healed as long as they don’t show when he is fully robed with his right shoulder open. The texts mention tattooing only in the context of punishment, so it would seem reasonable to assume that applicants who have voluntarily had themselves tattooed are not prohibited. Still, if tattoos visible when fully robed contain words or designs that are blatantly contrary to a bhikkhu’s ideals, it would be wise to have them removed
User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Criminal Background

Post by pitakele »

An excerpt from a book about the Sri Lankan meditation teacher, Ven. Gampaha Pemasiri, relates how one of his students spent time in prison for murder before ordaining as a monk.
During one Dhamma class, two very old monks suddenly entered. Bhante left with them for a while, and then came back and told a story. One of the monks was over eighty, but he was younger than Bhante by a count of rainy seasons (vassa 37) They had met in a prison where Pemasiri Thera had been involved in inmate rehabilitation programmes. The man was serving a term for murder, having killed his neighbour with an axe in a fit of anger during an argument about a plot of land. Meeting with Bhante and having long conversations with him changed the man altogether. Enchanted by this “taste” of the Dhamma, he was granted privileged conditions in the prison and won an early release, after which he became a monk. In time, he became a well-known teacher with many students. Now a very old man, the monk decided to live the rest of his life with the person who introduced him to the Dhamma. Bhante granted him permission, and the modern-day Angulimala became an integral part of the slow rhythm of life at Kanduboda.

'Comprehension of the Buddhist Path' - pp 62-63
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/7c1caa ... ok-eng.pdf
aniccā vata saṇkhārā - tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Criminal Background

Post by dharmacorps »

Doesn't this relate to the ordination question: Are you a free man?

Meaning you are not on the run from the lay, have paid your debts (to society and otherwise) etc?
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6492
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Criminal Background

Post by Dhammanando »

dharmacorps wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:50 pm Doesn't this relate to the ordination question: Are you a free man?

Meaning you are not on the run from the lay, have paid your debts (to society and otherwise) etc?
No, it's one of the many impediments that aren't asked about in the ordination interrogation. What you're referring to is the requirement that one not be required for military service.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Criminal Background

Post by dharmacorps »

Thank you for explaining that Bhante. I hadn't thought of that.
Post Reply