Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:55 am
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 am ...Even though what he was saying was factual he was adjudged pārājika because his intention was to deceive.
...


Thanks a lot, Venerable. I think how the intention works is very exquisite.

This reminds me of some writing by a venerable in Burmese something like:
  • ... it is a heavy kamma if one kills a non-parent person whom he believes as his actual parent; on the other hand, it is not a heavy kamma if one kills his actual parent without knowing the victim is his own parent.
:anjali:
Interesting.
So you can kill your parents without knowing and it is not an Anatariyapapa?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by DNS »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:51 am It is worrying if that Bhante G is not even Sotapanna, what hopes we have?
:D
From what is written above, Bhante G did not say that, nor did anyone else. When asked the question if he is enlightened or not, he said no. Usually when people ask "are you enlightened"? they mean full enlightenment, not one of the three prior stages.

I agree with what Bhante D wrote, that it's better if lay people don't ask, as it invites a potential offense and no matter how someone answers the question, it's bound to be misinterpreted. And then there are those who play the humility - false humility game, which is another hint at superiority -- the thought "I'm not enlightened and because I say this, proves I'm so humble [and therefore, superior] of all people here."

Therefore, best if those questions aren't asked or answered. :tongue:
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:51 am So the monk will definitely know that s/he is a Sotapanna, Sakdhagami and Anagami?
Is it likely that someone who's "crossed over beyond doubt" (vitiṇṇakankhā; tiṇṇavicikicchā) might be in doubt about it?
SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:51 amIt is worrying if that Bhante G is not even Sotapanna, what hopes we have?
In Ven. Jayasara's post Bhante G. wasn't asked if he was a sotāpanna.
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SarathW
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

Is it likely that someone who's "crossed over beyond doubt" (vitiṇṇakankhā; tiṇṇavicikicchā) might be in doubt about it?
Ok for Sotapanna but how about Sakdhagami? What is the yardstick?
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:01 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:55 am
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 am ...Even though what he was saying was factual he was adjudged pārājika because his intention was to deceive.
...


Thanks a lot, Venerable. I think how the intention works is very exquisite.

This reminds me of some writing by a venerable in Burmese something like:
  • ... it is a heavy kamma if one kills a non-parent person whom he believes as his actual parent; on the other hand, it is not a heavy kamma if one kills his actual parent without knowing the victim is his own parent.
:anjali:
Interesting.
So you can kill your parents without knowing and it is not an Anatariyapapa?

That is what I read, and I like that very much. Intention matters most, imo.

:heart:

It is somewhat off topic here, so let me start a new thread.
.


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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:22 am Ok for Sotapanna but how about Sakdhagami? What is the yardstick?
The attainment of all the ariyan paths and fruits are insight knowledges. As such, there would be no way that a sotāpanna's arrival at sakadāgāmitā and the resultant attenuation of kāmarāga and byāpāda could be mistaken for an attenuation of these due to some non-ariyan cause, like a decline in the body's testosterone production in old age, a regular abiding in jhāna or whatever.
During vassa this year I shall be offline until the end of October.

Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
SarathW
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:45 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:22 am Ok for Sotapanna but how about Sakdhagami? What is the yardstick?
The attainment of all the ariyan paths and fruits are insight knowledges. As such, there would be no way that a sotāpanna's arrival at sakadāgāmitā and the resultant attenuation of kāmarāga and byāpāda could be mistaken for an attenuation of these due to some non-ariyan cause, like a decline in the body's testosterone production in old age, a regular abiding in jhāna or whatever.
Thank you Bhante.
I still do not know what insight knowledge is.
Is this knowledge (insight) come only for Ariya?
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:49 am Thank you Bhante.
I still do not know what insight knowledge is.
Is this knowledge (insight) come only for Ariya?
No, at the lower levels of insight one is still a worldling, albeit a kalyāna one.
During vassa this year I shall be offline until the end of October.

Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by confusedlayman »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:55 am
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 am ...Even though what he was saying was factual he was adjudged pārājika because his intention was to deceive.
...


Thanks a lot, Venerable. I think how the intention works is very exquisite.

This reminds me of some writing by a venerable in Burmese something like:
  • ... it is a heavy kamma if one kills a non-parent person whom he believes as his actual parent; on the other hand, it is not a heavy kamma if one kills his actual parent without knowing the victim is his own parent.
:anjali:
if I mentally resolve every being is my parent and then after few days if I kill an ant, am I going to avicii?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Zom »

Is it likely that someone who's "crossed over beyond doubt" (vitiṇṇakankhā; tiṇṇavicikicchā) might be in doubt about it?
From what I remember, suttas explain this (transcended) doubt as a doubt about what mental states are skillful and what are unskillful, but not every kind of doubt. Taking this into account, as well as the case with Mahanama, and the existence of "Dhamma mirror" instruction, I see this as a possibility (that an ariyan doesn't know or isn't absolutely sure that he has attained the fruit).
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:07 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:55 am
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 am ...Even though what he was saying was factual he was adjudged pārājika because his intention was to deceive.
...


Thanks a lot, Venerable. I think how the intention works is very exquisite.

This reminds me of some writing by a venerable in Burmese something like:
  • ... it is a heavy kamma if one kills a non-parent person whom he believes as his actual parent; on the other hand, it is not a heavy kamma if one kills his actual parent without knowing the victim is his own parent.
:anjali:
if I mentally resolve every being is my parent and then after few days if I kill an ant, am I going to avicii?
This is a bit like Voodoo.
I think Abraham kill a got instead of the sun.
How about if you did not kill the ant but you were thinking of killing it?
What about if you hit a rock instead of hitting your enemy?
In my opinion, killing an ant thinking that is your parent will take you to Avici hell twice perhaps.
Because acting on ignorance is more blaames worthy than acting with wisdom in Buddism.
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by zerotime »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 am
zerotime wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:11 pm I remember reading one strange case inside the sources, about somebody who was an arhant without being aware of that. I believe somebody posted the exact source time ago in this board. Unfortunately I cannot find it now. If somebody remember the case, it would be good to know
Not arahantship. The bhikkhu attained jhāna but without realizing that it was jhāna he had attained. Later, presumably for the sake of name and fame, he boasted that he had attained jhāna even though he believed that he hadn't. Even though what he was saying was factual he was adjudged pārājika because his intention was to deceive.

The Vinaya has no analogous cases of bhikkhus arriving at ariyan attainments but not realising it.
thanks Bhante. :anjali: I dont have a clear memory of that source and I take your words for the right answer. Because really it sounds too strange in the case of arhanthood
Dhammanando wrote: Is it likely that someone who's "crossed over beyond doubt" (vitiṇṇakankhā; tiṇṇavicikicchā) might be in doubt about it?
I wonder if in the case of stream entry, this could be a different case if there is no access to Dhamma. In example, a person who don't know Dhamma teaching could attain nibbana and without having doubt about the experience in itself. However, without knowledge of Dhamma teaching, later it could be fit in another belief, some god, or into doubts about how to fit the experience into some doctrinal frame.

It would mean that without Dhamma teaching there is no stream-entry in proper terms. Because logically still there is no the stream to enter; still no knowledge of the Path to be followed until the complete eradication of defilements. Then it would be an experience of nibbana and that's all.

Well, I say this because there are other paths and Religions which also preach an "eternal life" and similar things. And obviously also they are talking on deathless. Although without a Path to arhanthood, to the complete eradication of defilements and end of rebirth. Here also I remember some Buddhadasa explanations about thinking in nibbana as a "natural" element accessible for the human being.
Or also I think in the paccekabuddhas case, perhaps more problematic.
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:51 am


It is worrying if that Bhante G is not even Sotapanna, what hopes we have?
In the Suttas there were 7 year old arahants... since you are older and not an arahant yet, should you despair? Each person is on their own path with their own level of practice in past lives, it does no good comparing yourself to others.

Who said anything about what attainment Bhante G has? I simply said he has said no when asked if he was awakened, you are construing two separate things again. In Bhante G's case it doesn't really matter what attainments he has or does not ,it does not have an affect on his teaching, because he has always been careful to bring forth what the Buddha teaches, not what he thinks. Any one teacher can be failable, but the Buddha's teachings in the EBTs are unassailable.

Bhante G has pointed to the Buddha statue behind him and said " Buddha is the teacher, I'm just a Kalyana mitta" , and frankly I think that is the best way for things to be, this is why when Im invited to go to a place I say I'm going to share Dhamma, not teach it, the Buddha is the only teacher, and getting wrapped up and invested too much in any one individual living who is currently sharing Dhamma can be an unskillful activity. My rock, my foundation is the Buddha and the teachings found in the suttas, living monastics will come and go, but those teachings remain.

I find it incredulous the number of teachers people credit some level of awakening to, Of all the monastic teachers I've seen I don't think but a small percentage may be sotapanna, let alone awakend. I could be wrong, because I haven't entered the stream yet myself, but I think its a natural desire of laity to want their teacher to have some kind of attainment, I just don't think it's as common as people think.

good oratory skills, number of years in robes, popularity of books and teachings, how dignified they may act and look, all these external factors does not necessarily = some kind of attainment, it CAN, but people mistake the trees for the forest as it were. As Buddha said, you cannot know the attainment of someone unless you are also attained, and you cannot know the quality and character of a person unless you have lived with them for a long time and seen how they act and react to life situations.

I have learned from many different monastics who have had important contributions to my path at various times, some I still listen to, some I've out grown, but their attainments have never mattered. What matters is putting the teachings into practice, and you keep what works and what is good, and abandon what doesn't work and is not good. I also joke that the only monastics I really try to model and look up to have left their last Bodies 2600 years ago, the arahants of old have finished their path and are no longer with us, so they cannot disappoint your expectations :).
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

it does no good comparing yourself to others.
Thank you, Bhante.
I am just airing a typical thought pattern of a newcomer to Buddhism or even a Buddhist who trying to follow the path.
We both are in this forum for almost ten years.
I have written 16000 posts but you have done only 300 posts!
But we both have done a similar sacrifice in two different ways.
If someone asks me why I have wasted so much time in this forum, my answer will be that I have not wasted a single minute of my time even though it appears to some that I have wasted a lot of time here.
I am sure you also tell the same that you have not wasted a single minute of the time you spent on your journey. At least you are one step ahead of me. :D

The point I am trying to make is that we have to answer these questions in a different way.
Even Buddha had to convince his most faithful friends that he was an enlightened person.
Otherwise, they would not have followed the Buddha's path.

Even though it is an inappropriate question you can't stop people from asking that question.
If I tell someone that Paris is a great tourist destination, naturally people will ask whether I have been there.
At least I must be able to show some of my travel plans to him, even if I have not been there yet.

I am just thinking aloud here.
:D
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:07 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:55 am
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 am ...Even though what he was saying was factual he was adjudged pārājika because his intention was to deceive.
...


Thanks a lot, Venerable. I think how the intention works is very exquisite.

This reminds me of some writing by a venerable in Burmese something like:
  • ... it is a heavy kamma if one kills a non-parent person whom he believes as his actual parent; on the other hand, it is not a heavy kamma if one kills his actual parent without knowing the victim is his own parent.
:anjali:
if I mentally resolve every being is my parent and then after few days if I kill an ant, am I going to avicii?
I replied in this topic viewtopic.php?p=628695#p628695
because it's slightly off-topic here.

:heart:
.


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