Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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zerotime
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by zerotime »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:44 am I have learned from many different monastics who have had important contributions to my path at various times, some I still listen to, some I've out grown, but their attainments have never mattered. What matters is putting the teachings into practice, and you keep what works and what is good, and abandon what doesn't work and is not good. I also joke that the only monastics I really try to model and look up to have left their last Bodies 2600 years ago, the arahants of old have finished their path and are no longer with us, so they cannot disappoint your expectations :).
what a truth. At all, both arahants of old and modern teachers they all only will remain like images in the mind.
Choose a reality to build a destiny.

Nagara Sutta SN 12.65

"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times."

:namaste:
SarathW
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

If I was a monk and someone asks me whether I am enlightened, I will take that as an opportunity to discuss some Dhamma with him/her.
First I will ask him what he understands by enlightenment.
Then I explain to him this word is a common word to many regions and it means different to different people.
Then I show them the various stages of enlightenment in Buddhism and the final goal of Buddism.
According to Buddhism, the enlightenment is gradual attainment even though Buddhism differentiates the worldly enlightenment from the enlightenment of transcending the world.
I also point out to them that the question is irrelevant because the enlightenment has to be realised by oneself.
Also, the Vinay code prohibits discussing the attainment with lay people.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:59 am If I was a monk and someone asks me whether I am enlightened, I will take that as an opportunity to discuss some Dhamma with him/her.
First I will ask him what he understands by enlightenment.
Then I explain to him this word is a common word to many regions and it means different to different people.
Then I show them the various stages of enlightenment in Buddhism and the final goal of Buddism.
According to Buddhism, the enlightenment is gradual attainment even though Buddhism differentiates the worldly enlightenment from the enlightenment of transcending the world.
I also point out to them that the question is irrelevant because the enlightenment has to be realised by oneself.
Also, the Vinay code prohibits discussing the attainment with lay people.
Very good.
But a monk should think of why the layperson asked the question. When laypeople ask this question to a monk, they want to know if he is experienced and wise and should be followed. They want to know if he's a superstar monk. They don't want a lecture on the meaning and various stages.
And asking this question of a monk shows they are at the very beginning, and probably not ready for a deep lecture. Teach to their level.
SarathW
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:03 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:59 am If I was a monk and someone asks me whether I am enlightened, I will take that as an opportunity to discuss some Dhamma with him/her.
First I will ask him what he understands by enlightenment.
Then I explain to him this word is a common word to many regions and it means different to different people.
Then I show them the various stages of enlightenment in Buddhism and the final goal of Buddism.
According to Buddhism, the enlightenment is gradual attainment even though Buddhism differentiates the worldly enlightenment from the enlightenment of transcending the world.
I also point out to them that the question is irrelevant because the enlightenment has to be realised by oneself.
Also, the Vinay code prohibits discussing the attainment with lay people.
Very good.
But a monk should think of why the layperson asked the question. When laypeople ask this question to a monk, they want to know if he is experienced and wise and should be followed. They want to know if he's a superstar monk. They don't want a lecture on the meaning and various stages.
And asking this question of a monk shows they are at the very beginning, and probably not ready for a deep lecture. Teach to their level.
OK.
So how would you answer this question if you were monks (or when you were a monk.) :D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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retrofuturist
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:58 pm So how would you answer this question if you were monks (or when you were a monk.) :D
Dhammanando wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:31 pm ...usually I just reply that laypeople should never ask a bhikkhu about his attainments, for such a question is in effect an invitation for the bhikkhu to commit a Vinaya offence.
That would seem like the best approach to me, as it's neither hinting nor misleading, yet gives a truthful response to the questioner.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
may.all.bliss
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by may.all.bliss »

The rule was probably meant so monks don't go around flaunting their attainments to people.
Also speaking truth which may reveal a level of awakening after being asked is not the same as making effort to let people know if you have some kind of attainment.

In any case, 'teachings weren't made for grasping [but for practice]'
TRobinson465
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by TRobinson465 »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:19 am Also, Ven Thanissaro says in regards to parajika 4, "There is no offense if one makes a claim out of a mistaken and exaggerated understanding of one’s attainment; and no offense if one is not intending to boast, i.e., one makes a claim that may sound like an implicit reference to a superior human state but is not intended as such."
Does he really say there is no offense if you make such a claim without intending to boast?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

TRobinson465 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:37 pm Does he really say there is no offense if you make such a claim without intending to boast?
Here's an example, the claim "I have laid down my burden!" which is often found in the suttas to mean someone has become enlightened.
If a monk says this when he has finished carrying a giant box of books to the monastery library, then it's no offense.
The claim was not intended to boast.
You can read more in this chapter on the Buddhist Monastic Code, Vol 1, by Venerable Thanissaro. https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/ ... 0.html#Pr4
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by TRobinson465 »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:48 pm
TRobinson465 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:37 pm Does he really say there is no offense if you make such a claim without intending to boast?
Here's an example, the claim "I have laid down my burden!" which is often found in the suttas to mean someone has become enlightened.
If a monk says this when he has finished carrying a giant box of books to the monastery library, then it's no offense.
The claim was not intended to boast.
You can read more in this chapter on the Buddhist Monastic Code, Vol 1, by Venerable Thanissaro. https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/ ... 0.html#Pr4
Oh okay. So it's more like making the statement without the intention of actually claiming such abilities. When I read making the claim "without the intention to boast" I thought it was something like you can purposely claim an attainment you have but it cannot be for the reason of boasting (like if you claimed it for another reason, like so you can teach/tell someone something that you would only know thru abhinna or something)
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

TRobinson465 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:01 pm Oh okay. So it's more like making the statement without the intention of actually claiming such abilities.
Yep, you've got it.
You seem quite interested in vinaya, are you thinking of maybe ordaining sometime? Or just like the topic?
:anjali:
TRobinson465
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by TRobinson465 »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:10 pm
TRobinson465 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:01 pm Oh okay. So it's more like making the statement without the intention of actually claiming such abilities.
Yep, you've got it.
You seem quite interested in vinaya, are you thinking of maybe ordaining sometime? Or just like the topic?
:anjali:
Both. I've actually ordained short term before. But just for a few months. I have thought of ordaining for longer but it's still up on the air.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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