Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

The relevant part is from 01:05 to 01:15.
He says "...the Buddha says we should learn from fully enlightened monks. I am not a fully enlightened monk."

First question is: is he hinting that he is some kind of enlightened. ( for example sotapanna)

If the answer is yes he is hinting, and it is true he's a sotapanna, then he has committed a pācittiya offence by telling a lay person. This type of offence is cleared by confessing to another monk. It's significant, but after confessing there is no further problem. See Pācittiya 8.

If the answer is yes he is hinting and also he is knowingly telling a lie that he's a sotapanna, then he has committed a Parajika offence and must be disrobed. See Parajika 4.

If the answer is no he is not hinting that he's enlightened, then there is no offence.

As for if he is hinting or not, we should always give people the benefit of the doubt unless there is very strong evidence otherwise.
In matters of monastic law the intention of the person must always be taken into account.

In my opinion he did not claim any level of enlightenment when he said that, and it was just badly phrased language.

For anyone who want to read more about Parajika 4 and Pācittiya 8, you can see BMC1 here https://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Buddhism/l ... ndex.html or the PDF here
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... o/bmc1.pdf

(My vinaya memory is a bit rusty, so if anyone wants to correct my answer, please do. For example I'm not entirely sure about the extent of Hinting as regards to parajika 4.)
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Also, Ven Thanissaro says in regards to parajika 4, "There is no offense if one makes a claim out of a mistaken and exaggerated understanding of one’s attainment; and no offense if one is not intending to boast, i.e., one makes a claim that may sound like an implicit reference to a superior human state but is not intended as such."
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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

sure, if you are a monastic who shares Dhamma with people you will eventually be asked if you are awakened, even me as a junior monastic has been asked that.

My preceptor Bhante G was essentially asked that every retreat while I was there lol, and he always told them he was not.

The two rules related to this are about telling someone you HAVE an attainment, whether true or a lie.
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SarathW
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:20 am sure, if you are a monastic who shares Dhamma with people you will eventually be asked if you are awakened, even me as a junior monastic has been asked that.

My preceptor Bhante G was essentially asked that every retreat while I was there lol, and he always told them he was not.

The two rules related to this are about telling someone you HAVE an attainment, whether true or a lie.
This is problematic for me.
What do you mean by enlightenment?
if you are Sotapannna, are you partly enlightened?
Are you enlightened if you are on the path?
Aren't you enlightened if you decided to practice Sila and Samadhi?
Now if you take any of the above to be the meaning of enlightenment Bhante G is telling a lie inadvertently.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:39 am
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:20 am sure, if you are a monastic who shares Dhamma with people you will eventually be asked if you are awakened, even me as a junior monastic has been asked that.

My preceptor Bhante G was essentially asked that every retreat while I was there lol, and he always told them he was not.

The two rules related to this are about telling someone you HAVE an attainment, whether true or a lie.
This is problematic for me.
What do you mean by enlightenment?
if you are Sotapannna, are you partly enlightened?
Are you enlightened if you are on the path?
Now if you take any of the above to be the meaning of enlightenment Bhante G is telling a lie inadvertently.
Hmm, so you know Bhante G is one of the levels of awakening? I mean I lived with him for 5 and a half years, including half that being literally in the room next door, and I don't know, although I have my suspicions.

an awakened being is a fully awakened being, before that you are on the path, before Non-Returner you still have greed and hatred, and even they have only abandoned half the fetters.

I think its much better for a monastic to be straight forward and truthful when asked, rather then to obfuscate and put up a veneer of holiness that falls apart when you get to see their real actions when laity arent looking.
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SarathW
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

an awakened being is a fully awakened being
I don't think this is correct.
In my opinion, when you eliminate self-view you are partly awakened.
Again, how can you answer someone without knowing what the questioner is asking?
Another point is there were some monks in Buddha's time who did not know they were awakened.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

In the Milindapañha Ven. Nāgasena shows one way for bhikkhus to respond to such improper questions from unordained people - with a non-committal answer:
Paṭi­sandhi­pañha

The King said: "Bhante Nāgasena, is there anyone who dies and is not reborn?"

Some are reborn, some are not," replied the elder.

"Who is reborn and who is not?"

"One with defilements is reborn, one free of defilements is not."

"And will you, Bhante Nāgasena, be reborn?"

"If I have grasping then I shall be reborn, if I am free of grasping then I shall not."

"You are dexterous, Bhante Nāgasena."
I've sometimes done this myself, but usually I just reply that laypeople should never ask a bhikkhu about his attainments, for such a question is in effect an invitation for the bhikkhu to commit a Vinaya offence.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

Another point is there were some monks in Buddha's time who did not know they were awakened.
can you show me proof of this? its quite clear from the EBTs that a person knows they are awakened and knows the victory cry of the arahant, birth is ended, the holy life has been lived, done is what was to be done, there is nothing further for this world. I find pretty much impossible that someone would not know they are awakened.

as for your other statement. I think that people tend to put way too much holiness onto the sotapanna attainment. Sotapanna have full faith and have cut through identity view, but they still have the conceit I am, and can still do all kinds of bad stuff and make mistakes , just not the gravest mistakes and they wont hide them. Sotapanna have just "entered the stream", they are just at the beginning of crossing it and will within 7 lifetimes reach the other end. I suppose if "partially awakened" is clarified and compared with fully awakened then its ok.

The average person will know awakened as fully awakened. You'd have to get a fair bit into Buddhism to understand the differences, so if a person asks if you are awakened I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 times they mean fully, and they will use the term enlightened.
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by dharmacorps »

I've heard a few Ajahns say when asked if they are enlightened (not by me, I would never be comfortable asking that), something like "I don't think I am". Another answer was "I would have to say I don't think I am" (probably the more clever answer). Both these Ajahns I think have completed the path based on my experience with them. There is wiggle room in both answers. Students need to size up the teachers for themselves, so questions like this are in bad taste, unless done to see if the monk will say something uncouth.
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zerotime
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by zerotime »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:50 pm can you show me proof of this? its quite clear from the EBTs that a person knows they are awakened and knows the victory cry of the arahant, birth is ended, the holy life has been lived, done is what was to be done, there is nothing further for this world. I find pretty much impossible that someone would not know they are awakened.
I remember reading one strange case inside the sources, about somebody who was an arhant without being aware of that. I believe somebody posted the exact source time ago in this board. Unfortunately I cannot find it now. If somebody remember the case, it would be good to know
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

zerotime wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:11 pm I remember reading one strange case inside the sources, about somebody who was an arhant without being aware of that. I believe somebody posted the exact source time ago in this board. Unfortunately I cannot find it now. If somebody remember the case, it would be good to know
Not arahantship. The bhikkhu attained jhāna but without realizing that it was jhāna he had attained. Later, presumably for the sake of name and fame, he boasted that he had attained jhāna even though he believed that he hadn't. Even though what he was saying was factual he was adjudged pārājika because his intention was to deceive.

The Vinaya has no analogous cases of bhikkhus arriving at ariyan attainments but not realising it.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
SarathW
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

Perhaps I was thinking (incorrectly) about Mahanama sutt or Nakula Sutta.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-2
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SarathW
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 am
zerotime wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:11 pm I remember reading one strange case inside the sources, about somebody who was an arhant without being aware of that. I believe somebody posted the exact source time ago in this board. Unfortunately I cannot find it now. If somebody remember the case, it would be good to know
Not arahantship. The bhikkhu attained jhāna but without realizing that it was jhāna he had attained. Later, presumably for the sake of name and fame, he boasted that he had attained jhāna even though he believed that he hadn't. Even though what he was saying was factual he was adjudged pārājika because his intention was to deceive.

The Vinaya has no analogous cases of bhikkhus arriving at ariyan attainments but not realising it.
So the monk will definitely know that s/he is a Sotapanna, Sakdhagami and Anagami?
Isn't this some sort of subjective assessment based on Sutta?

It is worrying if that Bhante G is not even Sotapanna, what hopes we have?

:D
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Re: Can a monk tell his followers that he is not fully enlightened?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:33 am ...Even though what he was saying was factual he was adjudged pārājika because his intention was to deceive.
...


Thanks a lot, Venerable. I think how the intention works is very exquisite.

This reminds me of some writing by a venerable in Burmese something like:
  • ... it is a heavy kamma if one kills a non-parent person whom he believes as his actual parent; on the other hand, it is not a heavy kamma if one kills his actual parent without knowing the victim is his own parent.
:anjali:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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