Did Buddha say that the monk who breaks Sila is better than the layperson who observes Sila?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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SarathW
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Did Buddha say that the monk who breaks Sila is better than the layperson who observes Sila?

Post by SarathW »

Did Buddha say that the monk who breaks Sila is better than the layperson who observes Sila?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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confusedlayman
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Re: Did Buddha say that the monk who breaks Sila is better than the layperson who observes Sila?

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:29 am Did Buddha say that the monk who breaks Sila is better than the layperson who observes Sila?
breaking sila is bad irrespective of layman or monk..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Mr Albatross
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Re: Did Buddha say that the monk who breaks Sila is better than the layperson who observes Sila?

Post by Mr Albatross »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:29 am Did Buddha say that the monk who breaks Sila is better than the layperson who observes Sila?
Absolutely not! It's just a foolish Mahayana superstition taught by Nagarjuna and Dogen.

But they don't actually say that a bad monk is better than a good layperson. What they say is that he is ultimately better off.

The argument goes that if you live as a good layperson, keeping the precepts and so on, then you create the causes for rebirth in heaven but you're not any closer to enlightenment. But if you get ordained as a monk and then break all the rules, then you create the causes for rebirth in hell, so in the short term you're worse off than the good layperson. But just by getting ordained you have planted a seed that will inevitably lead you either to arahantship or buddhahood.

And so the followers of the Mahayana superstition conclude that from a short term point of view it's better to be a good layperson, but from a long term point of view it's better to be a bad monk.
Our Ancestral Master Nāgārjuna once said:

If people who have left home to be within the Buddha Dharma break the precepts and lapse into impure ways, once they have brought their impure ways to an end and obtained liberation from them, they will be like the nun Utpalavarna in the Jataka Scripture on past lives. While the Buddha was in the world, this nun attained the six transcendent abilities and realized arhathood. She once entered the house of a member of the nobility, and, continually extolling the Dharma of leaving home to become a monk, she admonished the wives and daughters of the noble, saying, “My sisters, you should leave home and become nuns.”

The noblewomen all replied, “We are young and our bodies are comely. For us to keep to the precepts would indeed be hard, and we would surely break them on occasion.”

Utpalavarna replied, “If you break them, then you break them. Just leave lay life behind!”

They then asked her, “If we break the precepts, then we shall certainly fall into some hellish state, so why would you have us break them?”

She replied, “If you fall into hell, then you fall into hell.”

All the women broke out in laughter and said, “In a hell we will receive the consequences of our defiling deeds, so why would you have us fall into such a state?”

Utpalavarna replied, “In recalling my own past lives, there was a time when I had become a prostitute. I dressed up in all sorts of clothes and told the age-old licentious stories. One day, I dressed up as a nun, just as a joke. As a direct result of this I became a nun in Kashyapa Buddha’s time. After a while, I took to depending on my aristocratic demeanor and gave rise to pride and arrogance, thereby breaking monastic prohibitions as well as precepts. Because of the defilement from breaking monastic prohibitions and precepts, I fell into hell where I suffered the consequences of my various defiling acts. After I had suffered these consequences, I met Shakyamuni Buddha and left home to become a nun, ultimately obtaining the six transcendent abilities and realizing arhathood. Due to this, I have come to know that if we leave home and take the precepts, even though we may later break them, we will realize arhathood because of the karmic effect of taking the precepts. If I had merely done bad things without having any effects from the precepts, I would not have realized the Way.”

Nāgārjuna then continued with Utpalavarna’s narrative:

“In times long past, I had fallen into hellish states for generation after generation, getting out of some hell only to become a wicked person once again. When that wicked person died, again a hell was entered, and nothing whatsoever had been gained. Now, because of this, I have come to realize that if someone leaves home to be a monk and takes the precepts, even though that person later breaks the precepts, because of once having taken them, that person will obtain the fruits of the Way.”

The first cause for this nun to realize the arhat’s way was not something meritorious on her part, but just her having donned a kesa as a joke, and, due to the merits of that, she had now realized the Way. In a second lifetime, she met Kashyapa Buddha and became a nun. In a third lifetime, she met Shakyamuni Buddha and became a great arhat, equipped with the three insights and the six transcendent abilities.

Dogen, Kesa Kudoku ("The Spiritual Merits of the Monastic Robes")
SarathW
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Re: Did Buddha say that the monk who breaks Sila is better than the layperson who observes Sila?

Post by SarathW »

Absolutely not! It's just a foolish Mahayana superstition taught by Nagarjuna and Dogen.

But they don't actually say that a bad monk is better than a good layperson. What they say is that he is ultimately better off.

The argument goes that if you live as a good layperson, keeping the precepts and so on, then you create the causes for rebirth in heaven but you're not any closer to enlightenment. But if you get ordained as a monk and then break all the rules, then you create the causes for rebirth in hell, so in the short term you're worse off than the good layperson. But just by getting ordained you have planted a seed that will inevitably lead you either to arahantship or buddhahood.
:goodpost:
Thank you I heard this from a Mahayana-biased video presenter in Sri Lanka.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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