Are most Western monks trolls?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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DooDoot
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Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DooDoot »

Dear ordination forum

The suttas (MN 4) and Vinaya say the Buddha arose and the bhikkhus go forth for the benefit of gods & humans. The suttas appear to say gods & humans are those who engage in good conduct (AN 6.39; SN 56.47), etc.

In the Bible, Jesus said he came for sinners and not for the respectable (Luke 5:32).

In recent years, I have gained the impression Western monks are often preaching Western liberalism, merely for the sake of accumulating lay followers. It seems the Western bhikkhus cannot complete with Christianity for the moral people. However, many of these liberal lay followers appear to dwell in the hungry ghost, animal & hell realms (where the practise of Dhamma is difficult) rather than in the godly & human realms (where people are moral).

Are the Western monks preaching to Western liberals merely trolling for material requisites and not going forth in the world as the Lord Buddha directed? :shrug:
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DooDoot
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DooDoot »

For example, is it contrary to the intention of the Buddha for Buddhist monks to preach liberalism in an Islamic society in an attempt to recruit followers & benefactors in that Islamic society? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

I’m not sure where to begin with this one.

in terms of monks being political and playing to a side, this is an unfortunate thing that happens in the west and Buddhist countries, I see no Buddhist sangha anywhere devoid of people getting wrapped up in playing to a side, whether for material gain or otherwise.


It just so happens that the majority of westerners open to a religion from outside their culture tend to be left learning people, I am a rare exception from that rule as I was always an independent, Ive also met western Buddhists from various political stripes, although those not part of the liberal echo chamber, or those who simply want to be part of a place for Dhamma, tend not to be vocal about it, I myself gave up politics as a lay person and want to transcend politics as a monk and be able to share Dhamma with anyone of any political stripe or other background, Dhamma is for everyone.

even still I suspect liberal people are higher in psychological traits that would lead them to search outside their culture, or even have very aversive feelings of their culture and kind of idolize another.

People who are already Catholic/Christian are there because they are happy being so, they would not feel the need to search outside, then there are the majority of people who are born christians, or born Buddhists, who are basically only so due to being raised in the culture, not really practitioners, they probably dont feel a need for a spiritual path and if they did they’d be more likely to stay with what they know statistically.

lastly, frankly, theres a vanishingly small number of covert Buddhists in the west. take America for example, Buddhists are 1% or so, but 95% of that or more are Immigrants from Buddhist countries, your not gonna have too big a base pandering only to westerners, but if you do , pandering to their biases would probably be a viable, if not ethical, method of gaining support, so you may have some points, but really I dont think its as big a problem as you think.
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48vows
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by 48vows »

I generally agree with the sentiment that dootdoot expresses.

Anyways I have serious doubts about the validity of the ordination of many of what you call western monks.

But i will add that there are some serious western monks, worthy of veneration but only a few recieve much attention or have an internet precence
SarathW
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by SarathW »

I do not think many Western monks are trolls.
Without talking about our member monks I think there some great Western monks such as Bhhiku Bodhi, Ajahan Braham, Ajahan Sujato Venarable Tannisaro etc. (even though I have some reservations about their opinion which is not dissimilar to my opinion on Sri Lankan monks)
Unfortunately only a few Westerner support Western monks. The main supporters to Western monks are Asians such as Sri Lankans.
I like to know the experience of the monks in this forum.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by SarathW »

I do not think many Western monks are trolls.
Without talking about our member monks I think there some great Western monks such as Bhhiku Bodhi, Ajahan Braham, Ajahan Sujato Venarable Thannisaro etc. name a few (even though I have some reservations about their opinion which is not dissimilar to my opinion on Sri Lankan monks)
Unfortunately only a few Westerner support Western monks. The main supporters to Western monks are Asians such as Sri Lankans.
I like to know the experience of the monks in this forum.
Even in this forum the most of valuable posts are done by one Sri Lankan.
:tongue:
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

48vows wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:35 am Anyways I have serious doubts about the validity of the ordination of many of what you call western monks.
Interesting, why do you have doubts about the validity of their ordination? What leads you to think they're not legit ordinations?
48vows
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by 48vows »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:44 am
48vows wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:35 am Anyways I have serious doubts about the validity of the ordination of many of what you call western monks.
Interesting, why do you have doubts about the validity of their ordination? What leads you to think they're not legit ordinations?
I don't doubt the ordinations of all western monks.
But in the cases I doubt, it revolves around the things that disqualify an individual from ordaining and whether the questions are answered accurately.
But I really don't know for sure
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:14 am For example, is it contrary to the intention of the Buddha for Buddhist monks to preach liberalism in an Islamic society in an attempt to recruit followers & benefactors in that Islamic society? :shrug:
I think you're doing this post as a generalization from interacting with me. Let me clarify a few things:

1. I am not a westerner. I am a Chinese Malaysian.

2. Malaysia is majority Islamic, however, religion is divided along racial lines here. The Malays are the majority race, and there's law which makes it compulsory for them to be Muslims. And there's another law which prohibits Muslims to convert out, so basically, if you look at Dhamma books in Malaysia, we have the printed words: For non-Muslims only. There's no way any target of conversion for Malaysian to be Malays or Muslims.

3. Language can divide worlds. The Malays (race) mainly speak Malays (language), whereas Buddhism in Malaysia is typically in Chinese (language) or English (language). There's super lack of translation into Malay (language) for the Dhamma in Malaysia unlike in Indonesia where the Dhamma is mainly learnt in Indonesian language. Also, no point to do such translations. Given the language world divide (as well as race/religion), there's basically almost zero interaction between the monks and Muslims in Malaysia.

4. Malaysian Buddhists, like Chinese are super conservative. However, USA has exported it's liberal culture to the world, so it's not surprising to see some youths may have liberal views. It's mainly to these youths I am trying to cater to, as well as the general internet (that I come into contact with), which is a lot of liberal views. I personally am glad to be in a conservative society and find it better, easier to practise the Dhamma in such conservative societies. However, I don't support republicans in USA and a lot of their views, mainly because they are global warming deniers, and mainly are fundamentalist Christians (with the push against evolution teaching etc).
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DooDoot
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:14 am USA has exported it's liberal culture to the world, so it's not surprising to see some youths may have liberal views. It's mainly to these youths I am trying to cater to, as well as the general internet (that I come into contact with), which is a lot of liberal views.
So what exactly do you expect this liberals to gain from Buddhism? Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:01 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:14 am USA has exported it's liberal culture to the world, so it's not surprising to see some youths may have liberal views. It's mainly to these youths I am trying to cater to, as well as the general internet (that I come into contact with), which is a lot of liberal views.
So what exactly do you expect this liberals to gain from Buddhism? Thanks
The Dhamma, entrance to the way of liberation.
Alino
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by Alino »

Dear Doodoot,

What do you mean by libéral?
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
Ontheway
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by Ontheway »

It doesn't matter if the monks are western or Asian, as long as they practising and preaching Saddhamma, then they are good monks.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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dharmacorps
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by dharmacorps »

Beyond being a probable intentional incitement-type behavior in its own right, the OP's question conflates Christianity with Buddhism, and regional biases with political biases, and his own doubts about the motivation of others as others motivational shortcomings. On the face of it, the question doesn't make sense beyond an incitement, to me at least.
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DooDoot
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:23 am The Dhamma, entrance to the way of liberation.
Sorry but people who believe in & thus participate in casual sex cannot gain entrance to the way of liberation.
Alino wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:50 amWhat do you mean by libéral?
Our discussion was about casual sex where our novice monk DiamondNgXZ appears to believe is non-harmful that women have casual sex. "Liberal" means "sexual liberal", as the Buddha appeared to condemn in DN 31.
There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in associating with evil companions, namely: any gambler, any libertine, any drunkard, any swindler, any cheat, any rowdy is his friend and companion.

DN 31
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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