Is Temporary Ordination a good idea?

[SarathW]

Is Temporary Ordination a good idea?
Recently a Sri Lankan monk suggested that we should introduce temporary ordination in Sri Lanka. I know there is a place in Sri Lanka the temporary ordination is allowed. I have mixed opinions about this but thinking lowed I think this is a bad idea.
1) People can lose trust in monks in general as they may not who are the temporary ordained people.
2) The lack of Vinaya by newly ordained monks may tarnish the reputation of monks in geneal
3) Instead of temporary ordination lay people can experience long retreats in temples.
4) Many monks use money and telephones etc. so there is not much to experience as a temporary monk.
5) Temporary ordination has become a business in places like Thailand.
I voted NO

Please share your reason for the vote.

[S. Johann]

Good householder,

As Bhante Pesala once wrote, in ways of opinion, one should not fear, wait, even a second, if skillful deeds are desired, even if the giving might seem a little. Having come across old pictures, maybe an inspiring share, and at least from "only taking part to make others inspired", in one case at least already 12 Vassa and even no return.

One living next the seldom possibility for humans to go forth, even under the Buddha, but never takes on the change, isn't to be called blessed nor does such have fond Saddhā to an amount of factor for the path, no real refuge yet.

All the many lay peoples "copies" have very seldom any path and fruitful effects but mostly the opposite. Better to be clear about ones weakness and attachments within the world. Intoxication with health, youth, life/stand, is pretty common, ordinary, and seldom one would try to get ride of it even only for one day, living the Brahmacariya out of right view, maha metta, or willing to get goodness and the basic in gratitude known.

A life they waste away in association with the 5 evil friends leaded by doubt as their defender once gotten near the tradition of the Noble Ones.

"1001 chances I had, now it's already to late...", would he head upwardly or down once he is required to leave? But for one who could remember his goodness, even if past, such is able to gain pāmojja, pīti, passaddhi, sukkha... path, release, has build up, given Upanissayapaccaya.

Householder, don't wait, ways, possibilities fade, are not for sure and soon no more to be fond. Not done of what's ones task, one only regret. In association with the bad friends, Nivaranas, one gets lost even the refuge is near.

It's good to reflect why one still doubts, does not find in oneself, of what the wise praise: an alarming sign.

Three things are praised by the wise: generosity, going forth (ordain), rendering help for parents (giver, teacher, people of goodness).

"Because there are those not using gifts proper" is a pretty foolish argument of defilements not to take on the blessing of the straight path, goodness of the Gems.

[confusedlayman]

Good householder,

As Bhante Pesala once wrote, in ways of opinion, one should not fear, wait, even a second, if skillful deeds are desired, even if the giving might seem a little. Having come across old pictures, maybe an inspiring share, and at least from "only taking part to make others inspired", in one case at least already 12 Vassa and even no return.

One living next the seldom possibility for humans to go forth, even under the Buddha, but never takes on the change, isn't to be called blessed nor does such have fond Saddhā to an amount of factor for the path, no real refuge yet.

All the many lay peoples "copies" have very seldom any path and fruitful effects but mostly the opposite. Better to be clear about ones weakness and attachments within the world. Intoxication with health, youth, life/stand, is pretty common, ordinary, and seldom one would try to get ride of it even only for one day, living the Brahmacariya out of right view, maha metta, or willing to get goodness and the basic in gratitude known.

A life they waste away in association with the 5 evil friends leaded by doubt as their defender once gotten near the tradition of the Noble Ones.

"1001 chances I had, now it's already to late...", would he head upwardly or down once he is required to leave? But for one who could remember his goodness, even if past, such is able to gain pāmojja, pīti, passaddhi, sukkha... path, release, has build up, given Upanissayapaccaya.

Householder, don't wait, ways, possibilities fade, are not for sure and soon no more to be fond. Not done of what's ones task, one only regret. In association with the bad friends, Nivaranas, one gets lost even the refuge is near.

It's good to reflect why one still doubts, does not find in oneself, of what the wise praise: an alarming sign.

Three things are praised by the wise: generosity, going forth (ordain), rendering help for parents (giver, teacher, people of goodness).

"Because there are those not using gifts proper" is a pretty foolish argument of defilements not to take on the blessing of the straight path, goodness of the Gems.

thanks for kind comment. what is best place to ordain in india?

[S. Johann]

Good householder,

As Bhante Pesala once wrote, in ways of opinion, one should not fear, wait, even a second, if skillful deeds are desired, even if the giving might seem a little. Having come across old pictures, maybe an inspiring share, and at least from "only taking part to make others inspired", in one case at least already 12 Vassa and even no return.

One living next the seldom possibility for humans to go forth, even under the Buddha, but never takes on the change, isn't to be called blessed nor does such have fond Saddhā to an amount of factor for the path, no real refuge yet.

All the many lay peoples "copies" have very seldom any path and fruitful effects but mostly the opposite. Better to be clear about ones weakness and attachments within the world. Intoxication with health, youth, life/stand, is pretty common, ordinary, and seldom one would try to get ride of it even only for one day, living the Brahmacariya out of right view, maha metta, or willing to get goodness and the basic in gratitude known.

A life they waste away in association with the 5 evil friends leaded by doubt as their defender once gotten near the tradition of the Noble Ones.

"1001 chances I had, now it's already to late...", would he head upwardly or down once he is required to leave? But for one who could remember his goodness, even if past, such is able to gain pāmojja, pīti, passaddhi, sukkha... path, release, has build up, given Upanissayapaccaya.

Householder, don't wait, ways, possibilities fade, are not for sure and soon no more to be fond. Not done of what's ones task, one only regret. In association with the bad friends, Nivaranas, one gets lost even the refuge is near.

It's good to reflect why one still doubts, does not find in oneself, of what the wise praise: an alarming sign.

Three things are praised by the wise: generosity, going forth (ordain), rendering help for parents (giver, teacher, people of goodness).

"Because there are those not using gifts proper" is a pretty foolish argument of defilements not to take on the blessing of the straight path, goodness of the Gems.

thanks for kind comment. what is best place to ordain in india?

Good householder,

Atma once heard that some Brahmans from India went forth under Ajahn Martin and seeked after bringing back a good branch, the Dhamma-Vinaya, to India, but not sure in how far a "womb", a "Brahmahost" of the Noble Ones could be already established. At this time, Upasaka Swapnil shared infos on this board before.

The are also some other branches devoted to Vinaya and the life as special beggar.

Where ever good householder might feel inspired, recognizing the ways of the Noble Ones, is good to ask at least for the going forth under the Gems, once this step has archived and firm refuge in Dhamma-Vinaya, on foot, with bowl, whether near or far, he wouldn't need to fear to not arrive under the Noble Ones, if not arrived yet.

Don't he waste time, there is nothing to lose aside of not to return and even a coming back garant if "unluckily" not becoming satisfied.

mudita

[Ontheway]

Personally, I think temporary ordination is not the issue. The main issue is whether the Sri Lankan Buddhist temple or organisation is holding the true Dhamma-Vinaya or not.

I met quite many Sri Lankan Theravada monks in the past. Their teachings and opinions are so diverse, yet stay under the same temple. The devotee one day listen to this Venerable's talk but the next day listen to another Venerable's talk, and both of them while addressing the same Dhamma topic, gave different opinions and sometimes even in direct contradiction. In the end of the day, in this temple, there appeared different groups of people siding with different Bhantes.

[S. Johann]

Personally, I think temporary ordination is not the issue. The main issue is whether the Sri Lankan Buddhist temple or organisation is holding the true Dhamma-Vinaya or not.

I met quite many Sri Lankan Theravada monks in the past. Their teachings and opinions are so diverse, yet stay under the same temple. The devotee one day listen to this Venerable's talk but the next day listen to another Venerable's talk, and both of them while addressing the same Dhamma topic, gave different opinions and sometimes even in direct contradiction. In the end of the day, in this temple, there appeared different groups of people siding with different Bhantes.

Yet, even in such case, good householder on the way (?), that of what is required for even a short life in fulfilment of the Brahmachariya has been obtained. And if this temporary ordination, leaving home, isn't the last (even an Arahats ordination, the firm bond with the Sangha, was just a temporary), one has good gained one's, at most, last 7 further temporary ordinations till reaching unbond.

Good stand, birth, gained, is the cause of Dukkha (been seen), dukkha the cause of Saddha (surrender), saddha that of rejoice, rejoice (pāmojja), that of satisfied (pīti), satisfied that of calm (passaddhi), calm that of heal (sukha), heal that of concentration (samadhi), concentration that of seeing the way things arise and decay (yathābhūtañāṇadassana), seeing the way things are is the case of disenchanted (nibbida) arises, disenchanted non-desire (virāga) arises, on that liberation and the knowledge of liberation arises.

Once one having left home, if not reaching the highest within for it necessary ordination, he will be able to re-develop the seven factors of awakening, by recalling, or become reminded, where ever he will find an opening, or by coming across certain not completed factors cause.

The are only this five evil friends hindering one to leave home, by lack of Saddha: sense desire, ill-will, laziness&dullness, restlessness&remorse and the leader doubt.

All one needs to abound on hindrances are only those five evil associations within ones sphere and nothing else would one pull back from given auspicious opportunity to take.

Only one who let go, leaves house, stand, turnd torward the path of seeing dukkha, one who surrenders on it, knows surrender and it's effect. Don't one miss out the possibility to try and remain on the wrong way, even nurishing the five evil friends right here. One would need a proper object of reflection, rejoice on ones goodness, if the time of breaking apart soon approaches to gain at least opportunity for the nest temporary ordination till the last.

7 temporary returns are common for everyone, whether changing clothes, birth, stand by it, or within one all along, just shortly mentally.

[DiamondNgXZ]

3) Instead of temporary ordination lay people can experience long retreats in temples.

They are just novice monks then, if everyone knows that the robes is temporary. No need to go through the hassle of higher ordination.

Novice monks serve some more function than just lay yogis in temple. For one, they are practising to learn to live in robes and bowls. Could be a deciding factor to test if someone is ok with full ordination full time. Another is learning to live without money.

There might be more attention and training for Vinaya provided to the novice monk, more responsibility to learn the Vinaya instead of being a lay yogi in monastery. Especially in non-Buddhist countries where monks are not so common, temporary ordination can make the news, inspire others to take on the robes, or to try on temporary novice monk. Who knows if something clicks and some of them stay on for long term.

It also can serves to boost the no. of people in robes, encouraging more devotees to come and do food dana or else they normally wouldn't come in contact with monks and monasteries.

We are having a short term novice programme going on in my monastery now. So having a lot to say about this.

There's also the cultural expectation of being a novice can accumulate good kamma. That alone can bring total beginners into the robes, wherein that's their introduction to Buddhism. I had taught one who get into the Dhamma that way.

[S. Johann]

3) Instead of temporary ordination lay people can experience long retreats in temples.

They are just novice monks then, if everyone knows that the robes is temporary. No need to go through the hassle of higher ordination.

Novice monks serve some more function than just lay yogis in temple. For one, they are practising to learn to live in robes and bowls. Could be a deciding factor to test if someone is ok with full ordination full time. Another is learning to live without money.

There might be more attention and training for Vinaya provided to the novice monk, more responsibility to learn the Vinaya instead of being a lay yogi in monastery. Especially in non-Buddhist countries where monks are not so common, temporary ordination can make the news, inspire others to take on the robes, or to try on temporary novice monk. Who knows if something clicks and some of them stay on for long term.

It also can serves to boost the no. of people in robes, encouraging more devotees to come and do food dana or else they normally wouldn't come in contact with monks and monasteries.

We are having a short term novice programme going on in my monastery now. So having a lot to say about this.

There's also the cultural expectation of being a novice can accumulate good kamma. That alone can bring total beginners into the robes, wherein that's their introduction to Buddhism. I had taught one who get into the Dhamma that way.

Being just a novice, one should be clear to be just a novice, not having abounded home, stand, desires and rejoicing in the five strings of sensuality, a householder in robes, with householder interests. What's the use of encouragement of that by one without sufficient faith? Worthless when one carries signs of Noble stand, yet just use in ways neither causing faith in those without nor increasing saddha in those already have won. May a novice therefore take care and abstain from useless talk as it is usually over there in the central papanca realm and communists in robes.

[Inedible]

There are plenty of worse choices for how to go on vacation. With any luck you can set up a good foundation for your meditation practice to take with you.

[S. Johann]

There are plenty of worse choices for how to go on vacation. With any luck you can set up a good foundation for your meditation practice to take with you.

Yes, good householder. Once having act-ually done good, praiseworthy, one is able to clean ones mind, to access borderareas to the Noble domains, by the Uposatha of the Ariya. Yet, on the other side, the modern practice of the Jains is of no fruits, merely thief.

... “And what is the Uposatha of the Jains? There are the contemplatives called the Niganthas (Jains). They get their disciple to undertake the following practice: 'Here, my good man. Lay down the rod with regard to beings who live more than 100 leagues to the east… more than 100 leagues to the west… more than 100 leagues to the north… more than 100 leagues to the south.' Thus they get the disciple to undertake kindness & sympathy to some beings, but not to others.

“On the Uposatha day, they get their disciple to undertake the following practice: 'Here, my good man. Having stripped off all your clothing, say this: “I am nothing by anything or of anything. Thus there is nothing by anything or of anything that is mine.”' Yet in spite of that, his parents know of him that 'This is our child.' And he knows of them that 'These are my parents.' His wives & children know of him that 'This is our husband & father.' And he knows of them that 'These are my wives & children.' His workers & slaves know of him that 'This is our master.' And he knows of them that 'These are my workers & slaves.' Thus at a time when he should be persuaded to undertake truthfulness, he is persuaded to undertake falsehood. At the end of the night, he resumes the consumption of his belongings, even though they aren't given back to him. This counts as stealing, I tell you. Such is the Uposatha of the Jains, Visakha. When this Uposatha of the Jains is undertaken, it is not of great fruit or great benefit, not of great glory or great radiance. ..

While, even when done in cowboy ways, to make merits, this still merits, while modern ways of "home-Arahats" really not, lacking causes of right joy all around.

[Inedible]

I saw you quoted me, but I can't tell what your point was. That makes it difficult to respond.

[S. Johann]

I saw you quoted me, but I can't tell what your point was. That makes it difficult to respond.

No need for it. Much better to rejoice having renouncing as it's object, or mudita.

[TRobinson465]

I think it is a great idea. it is common in Thailand and Thailand is generally considered the hub of Theravada Buddhism. I think having that as a feature of Thai Buddhism certainly helped it make it the Theravada hub that it is just as Taiwan is the hub of of Mahayana Buddhism thanks to several of the unique aspects of Taiwanese Buddhism, such as the existence of large, savvy, and modern Buddhist orgs. I even know several "permanent" monks who become monks because they had done temporary ordination that is common in thai culture and liked it, many of which never would have thought of becoming monks full time otherwise.

Personally i never wouldve had as deep of an interest in Buddhism as i do now if it hadnt tried out temporary ordination. I have a few rebuttals for your objections.

1-2. There are already many permanent monks who behave badly and cause laypeople to lose faith. In fact scandals involving monks are very much the norm in Thai media and they almost always involve "permanent" monks anyways. This of course is the minority, most monks are just good bhikkhus just like most ppl are just good everyday people regardless of what the media says.

3. Retreats are not quite a replacement for ordination because the lifestyle and environment is just different from a temporary ordination program. And many people who would have become monks probably wouldnt have thought of doing so if they had just gone on a retreat. Plus retreats tend to be expensive. Temporary ordination programs are generally cheaper because it is heavily subsidized by faithful laypeople looking to accrue merit, despite many people, especially in the West, looking down on merit making culture while simultaneously and ungratefully leeching off the subsidy of the relevant programs and temples they use/go to that merit making culture funds/builds. The fact is, lay people just wont subsidize retreats the same way they subsidize temporary ordination programs for cultural and religious reasons. So temporary ordination programs expands reach/access.

4. I dont see how thats an argument against temporary ordination. In fact, from what ive seen many temporary ordination programs disallow those things during hte training period, its only permanent monks who use them for everyday things.

5) I dont think thats really true. Meditation has become a far bigger business than temporary ordination is from what ive seen. doesnt mean we shouldnt have meditation.

[DiamondNgXZ]

Being just a novice, one should be clear to be just a novice, not having abounded home, stand, desires and rejoicing in the five strings of sensuality, a householder in robes, with householder interests. What's the use of encouragement of that by one without sufficient faith? Worthless when one carries signs of Noble stand, yet just use in ways neither causing faith in those without nor increasing saddha in those already have won. May a novice therefore take care and abstain from useless talk as it is usually over there in the central papanca realm and communists in robes.

Novice monks live in monastery, not home. They had gone forth. So they are also homeless. They have the 10 precepts including no entertainment, no money, so nope, they don't indulge in 5 strings of sensuality. They are not a householder in robes. Don't denigrate part of the Sangha.

[S. Johann]

Being just a novice, one should be clear to be just a novice, not having abounded home, stand, desires and rejoicing in the five strings of sensuality, a householder in robes, with householder interests. What's the use of encouragement of that by one without sufficient faith? Worthless when one carries signs of Noble stand, yet just use in ways neither causing faith in those without nor increasing saddha in those already have won. May a novice therefore take care and abstain from useless talk as it is usually over there in the central papanca realm and communists in robes.

Novice monks live in monastery, not home. They had gone forth. So they are also homeless. They have the 10 precepts including no entertainment, no money, so nope, they don't indulge in 5 strings of sensuality. They are not a householder in robes. Don't denigrate part of the Sangha.

Those, whom Bhante talks about, are actually called Bhikkus, even if at home. While Bhikkhus living with the five strings are called (by those above) Novices, and Bhikkhus who trade and learn worldly thing, using, order money to use, are called householder in robes.

Sure, it's not an inspiration to ordain under the second or third. And always good to know whether already worthy of the stand one uses, others then in communist structures.

It's not an inspriration to encourage not to the next step, and the first of the path, leaving home/stand. Good when Bhante now got the point in rebuking himself.

There had been plent, are plenty and will be plenty "Novices" who bring Bhikkhus up to be worthy to their stand. So as the Buddha told, under the four things to be feared, even if young: One young and/or even only one day gone forth and not "They are just novice monks then..."

So even if just thought ordain only one day, others are smart to (especially if still in training or not even that) to be respectful and careful as it could be even an Arahat.