Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Ontheway
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Ontheway »

It is what happening now. These Venerable monks on Suttacentral, some of them criticized certain Suttas and claimed they are late inventions. Some monks promote the rejection of Eight Garudhammas for Bhikkhunis. And now we see these monks listen to music as if they are layfollowers.

I'm afraid monastics will interpret Vinaya Pitaka by their own discernment, no longer by the tradition itself where they obtained the scriptures at the first place.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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SilaSamadhi8
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

This is concerning.
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robertk
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by robertk »

To be fair a far worse fault common among present day bhikkhus is that of using money. And I doubt any of these western monks do that.
BrokenBones
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:50 am It is what happening now. These Venerable monks on Suttacentral, some of them criticized certain Suttas and claimed they are late inventions. Some monks promote the rejection of Eight Garudhammas for Bhikkhunis. And now we see these monks listen to music as if they are layfollowers.

I'm afraid monastics will interpret Vinaya Pitaka by their own discernment, no longer by the tradition itself where they obtained the scriptures at the first place.
Some suttas are late inventions.

The Eight Garudhammas are contentious and not completely clear cut as to their veracity.

The music is a definite no no.

Going by tradition is something the Buddha warned about. For some people, the teachings are the nub... others just go by tradition.

One's own discernment is paramount... by oneself is one liberated after giving ear... what people want to give ear to, is again, entirely down to the individual.
Ontheway
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Ontheway »

robertk wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:03 pm To be fair a far worse fault common among present day bhikkhus is that of using money. And I doubt any of these western monks do that.
True. I think it's rare to see a Bhikkhu like Venerable Bhante Subhuti.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
santa100
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by santa100 »

Ontheway wrote:I'm afraid monastics will interpret Vinaya Pitaka by their own discernment, no longer by the tradition itself where they obtained the scriptures at the first place.
A small correction to a big grammatical error: "...monastics have been interpreting..."
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SarathW
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by SarathW »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:37 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:38 am In that case, how would you justify these two Venerables, having supported and advocated the trend of EBTs, to do so?
Why are you asking users of one forum to justify the behaviour of the users of another forum? Why are you so concerned about others' behaviour? and why not take it directly to the people in question? Start a thread on Sutta Central about it if you must know.
I think this is a general question about the behaviour of monks rather than a behaviour of a member of another forum. I do not think that the Sutta Central D&D is a liberal forum. All the members who ask this sort of question are banned from Sutta Central. They all vote against you and that is the end of it.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:26 pm I think this is a general question about the behaviour of monks rather than a behaviour of a member of another forum. I do not think that the Sutta Central D&D is a liberal forum. All the members who ask this sort of question are banned from Sutta Central. They all vote against you and that is the end of it.
I see. That's too bad. I see this more and more often, that people from one group are unable to have civil conversations with members of another group. A loss for everyone.
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S. Johann
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by S. Johann »

robertk wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:03 pm To be fair a far worse fault common among present day bhikkhus is that of using money. And I doubt any of these western monks do that.
Optimistic... (receiving, asking for, yes even stuarts... not to speak of using or telling to use...) yet, if not, quite a minor fault comparing it with the punch of Sanghadiseas and else (yet Sg 13 and money are like siblings, of cause), in certain communities and around what they then sell a Dhamma... There was a direct relared topic, soon before, obiviously nobody understood the urgency and possible Okasa: Are there any procedures for corrupted sanghas?.

That's there maybe also a place where placing hints without being assumed not just doing it out of compassion.

My person, although not beloved, can only warn again and again, that what ever sacrifices and approves of this host lead not only to ones own lose by that of many.

Although in ways of acting with 'guests' not different to here, at least one would have the impression that monks act so, at least not so strong... Lay people aren't assumed to be saints, so even monks know the risk of shares in compassion.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

From the Upakkilesa Sutta
“There are, monks, some recluses and priests who drink spirits (surā) and wine (meraya), they do not abstain from drinking spirits and wine. This, monks, is the first defilement of recluses and priests, when defiled by this defilement some recluses and priests do not illuminate, do not shine, do not radiate.

“There are, monks, some recluses and priests who indulge in sexual relations, they do not abstain from sexual relations. This, monks, is the second defilement of recluses and priests, when defiled by this defilement some recluses and priests do not illuminate, do not shine, do not radiate.

“There are, monks, some recluses and priests who consent to using money, they do not abstain from accepting money. This, monks, is the third defilement of recluses and priests, when defiled by this defilement some recluses and priests do not illuminate, do not shine, do not radiate.

“There are, monks, some recluses and priests who make a living by a wrong-livelihood, they do not abstain from wrong-livelihood. This, monks, is the fourth defilement of recluses and priests, when defiled by this defilement some recluses and priests do not illuminate, do not shine, do not radiate.
On the other hand, do be careful about fault-finding. We all have faults, and our first priority is to remove them. It takes great skilful means to remove the faults of others by teaching the Dhamma.

Easy to See Are Others’ Faults
“Easily seen are others’ faults, hard indeed to see are one’s own.
Like chaff one winnows others’ faults,
but one’s own (faults) one hides,
as a crafty fowler conceals himself by camouflage.” (Dhp v 252)

Disregard the Faults of Others
“Disregard the faults of others, things done and left undone by others,
but examine the deeds done and not done by oneself.” (Dhp v 50)

The Naked Ascetic from Pāvā
A jealous naked ascetic told his lay supporter not to go to listen to the Buddha. She sent her son to invite the Buddha to her house. The naked ascetic told her son not to go there. He said he had to go or face a scolding from his mother. The ascetic told him to go, but not to say where his house was, and to arrive and leave from a different direction, then the two of them would enjoy the food prepared for the Buddha. The Buddha, of course, didn’t need any directions to find the house. The woman greeted him respectfully, offered alms, and listened to the Dhamma. When she showed her deep appreciation for the Buddha’s teaching, the ascetic — who was sitting in the back room with her son — couldn’t bear it, and suddenly burst in, abusing both her and the Buddha. He ran off, but the woman was too upset by this outburst to concentrate on the Dhamma. The Buddha advised her to disregard the faults of others and only to reflect on her own.

Defilements Multiply in Fault-finders
“He who sees others’ faults, and is ever irritable —
the defilements of such a one multiply.
He is far from the destruction of defilements.” (Dhp v 253)

The Fault-finding Elder
A certain elder was always finding fault with other monks, even regarding how they wore their robes. The monks told the Buddha about it. The Buddha said that one who admonishes others lawfully according to his duty is not at fault, but one who finds fault just out of malice will not gain concentration, and his defilements will increase. Saying thus, he uttered the above verse.
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S. Johann
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by S. Johann »

As householder RobertK pointed out in relation with some noted also here, it would be actually a community-related duty if aware to counter-act notions of "Eine Krähe hackt der anderen kein Auge aus"... Sure, if faulty difficult and possible improper if not really related, or extreme compassioned from an unrelated.

Poor, in all ways, that western monks (modern) usually use devoted for what would be their duty to fix, if even... and nurish in public for their sake on it.
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