Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Ontheway
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Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Ontheway »

It seems the monks on Suttacentral had a music preference each of them.

One of them called "Khemarato Bikkhu" even wrote "Dharma" (not Dhamma) based on Bob Dylan's song. He wrote:
You can find my playlist here 17 :headphones: :smile_cat:

And you may enjoy this essay I wrote a while ago on the Dharma of a Bob Dylan song

Another Bhikkhu with the name "Subharo" even wrote this:
Not “popular”, but yes, contemporary, yet timeless, acid jazz. Does contain a swear-word, so not for kids. Play on a sound system with good bass, if you can…:wink:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/b- ... sh/22776/2

As a Buddhist layfollower, I would like to know...

1) In the Vinaya Pitaka, is it allowable for Samanera, Samaneri, Bhikkhu or Bhikkhuni listen to music?

2) Did our Master - Gotama Buddha allows it to be done in any circumstance?

3) Is it appropriate for monastics, gone forth into homelessness, to actively discuss and even enjoy the musics?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Ontheway »

As a layfollower, I will observe eight precepts from time to time. And it was listed in the 7th precept that music need to be refrained from.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... asila.html

And I suppose that Sangha Vinaya is stricter compared to layfollowes' precepts.

But since these "EBT" monks are okay with the musics, does that mean music is allowable for Sangha in "EBT" sect?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Music has been discussed in this topic about 10 years ago
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10948
SarathW
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by SarathW »

I know both of the monks very well. (while I was in Sutta Central before they banned me for a lifetime)
The way I understand monks are expected to observe ten precepts (that is Eight Uposata precepts plus refrain from handling money) and not allowed to listen to music.
It is a pity that the monks have degenerated so much.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Ontheway »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:04 am Music has been discussed in this topic about 10 years ago
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10948
Thanks for digging it out. I will read now.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Ontheway »

:lol:
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:07 am I know both of the monks very well. (while I was in Sutta Central before they banned me for a lifetime)
The way I understand monks are expected to observe ten precepts (that is Eight Uposata precepts plus refrain from handling money) and not allowed to listen to music.
It is a pity that the monks have degenerated so much.
I think Bhikkhus are supposed to observe 227 Vinaya rules (more for Bhikkhunis). The ten precepts are for Samaneras and Dasa Sila Matas. Layfollowers can be 8 precepts and 5 precepts.

But I listened to Venerable Ashin Sarana's opinion on music:



He explained why music is not suitable for any sincere Buddhists and meditators because it is pertaining to craving and attachment.

Anyway, Venerable Ashin Sarana is upholding Pāli Tipitaka and Atthakatha tradition, speaks as Orthodox view preserved in the lineage of Vibhajjavada.

I wonder what is the EBTs justification for monks to enjoy music (I don't think I will ask in Suttacentral, they will surely ban me within hours).
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Ontheway »

Reading the thread given by James, some people said such rule don't appear in Suttas.

Alobha:
What's the reason the buddha had for recommending not listening to music? I tried finding out in the patimokkha but didn't find anything except for the uposatha rule.
By this logic, then we can assume only Uposatha Sila keepers will need to refrain from music? But not monastics?

I have not read through and remember every single Suttas. If that statement above is true, that might just explains why monks of various Buddhism sects listen to musics and sing in the name of Buddha and other purposes.







:shrug:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:26 am But since these "EBT" monks are okay with the musics, does that mean music is allowable for Sangha in "EBT" sect?
Two things.

EBT is not a "sect". It is the approach of giving precedence to early texts over later texts.

Secondly, if one follows the Early Buddhist Texts, they are clear that music and other such entertainments are to be avoided.

What you try to slag off as EBT is actually disregard for the EBT.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
BrokenBones
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:28 am :lol:
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:07 am I know both of the monks very well. (while I was in Sutta Central before they banned me for a lifetime)
The way I understand monks are expected to observe ten precepts (that is Eight Uposata precepts plus refrain from handling money) and not allowed to listen to music.
It is a pity that the monks have degenerated so much.
I think Bhikkhus are supposed to observe 227 Vinaya rules (more for Bhikkhunis). The ten precepts are for Samaneras and Dasa Sila Matas. Layfollowers can be 8 precepts and 5 precepts.

But I listened to Venerable Ashin Sarana's opinion on music:
...

He explained why music is not suitable for any sincere Buddhists and meditators because it is pertaining to craving and attachment.

Anyway, Venerable Ashin Sarana is upholding Pāli Tipitaka and Atthakatha tradition, speaks as Orthodox view preserved in the lineage of Vibhajjavada.

I wonder what is the EBTs justification for monks to enjoy music (I don't think I will ask in Suttacentral, they will surely ban me within hours).
Why equate this with EBT... as far as I'm aware the monks holding true to early Buddhism wouldn't have a bar with music (there is a pun there... but only just).
SarathW
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by SarathW »

There is a Sutta named Sangithika Sutta.
In this Sutta, it prohibits monks to sing Sutta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Ontheway »

In that case, how would you justify these two Venerables, having supported and advocated the trend of EBTs, to do so?

AFAIK, these two Venerables are exactly what you claimed to be, adherents of so called EBTs.

And yes, I would say EBTs is a modern sect. These EBTs advocates' attitude is similar to Sauntrantikas: Rejected Abhidhamma Pitaka, rejected Atthakatha and rejected Theriya-parampāra; interpreting Suttas or Sutras only by their own level of discernment.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:37 am There is a Sutta named Sangithika Sutta.
In this Sutta, it prohibits monks to sing Sutta.
I see. Thanks for info.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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retrofuturist
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:38 am In that case, how would you justify these two Venerables, having supported and advocated the trend of EBTs, to do so?
It's not for me to judge or justify the actions of others. The Suttas and Vinaya are quite clear on the matter. If people think they have priorities or values which trump the DhammaVinaya then that's for them, and on them.

Some modern monastics seem to be into all sorts of social, lifestyle or political mumbo jumbo (i.e. animal arts) that is frowned upon in the early discourses. That's their choice (kamma)... not yours or mine. You can try to point this out to them, if you see benefit in doing so, but they might not appreciate it. In the Buddha's day, laypeople drew attention to the disciplinary failings of monastics, but that tradition seems to have fallen away in these post-modern times due to political correctness and (the provision of and expectation of) empty unconditional reverence.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
BrokenBones
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:38 am In that case, how would you justify these two Venerables, having supported and advocated the trend of EBTs, to do so?

AFAIK, these two Venerables are exactly what you claimed to be, adherents of so called EBTs.

And yes, I would say EBTs is a modern sect. These EBTs advocates' attitude is similar to Sauntrantikas: Rejected Abhidhamma Pitaka, rejected Atthakatha and rejected Theriya-parampāra; interpreting Suttas or Sutras only by their own level of discernment.
AFAYK... please enlighten us. How can so called EBT adherents so flagrantly reject the Vinaya? Doesn't sound very EBT to me.

Just because certain people are pro this or anti that, doesn't make them EBT. It's a package deal for me.

It seems that EBT has become a dirty word... how dare people lay 100% importance in the Buddha's teachings and ignore what came after... I really can't understand peoples blinkers on this subject.

The Buddha... foremost of teachers... nothing else needs to be said 😃... what comes after is either good but inferior or very bad and dangerous.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Can Buddhist monastics enjoy instrumental music or pop music?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:38 am In that case, how would you justify these two Venerables, having supported and advocated the trend of EBTs, to do so?
Why are you asking users of one forum to justify the behaviour of the users of another forum? Why are you so concerned about others' behaviour? and why not take it directly to the people in question? Start a thread on Sutta Central about it if you must know.
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