Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by Dhammanando »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:15 am So former barbers aren’t allowed to shave their own heads. What about the other Bhikkhus?
The majority get another monk to shave their head, though a sizeable minority (including me) prefer to do their own.
Pondera wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:15 amWhat is the preferred method? Straight edge? Razor? Clippers?
The razor that you're given at your ordination is a straight-edge, but in Thailand nowadays very few monks ever use it. The preferred tool is an old-fashioned 3-piece single-blade Gillette with the safety bar removed.

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Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by DNS »

Jain monks and nuns pull the hair out with their hands and fingers. Ouch!

Thank goodness for the middle way. :meditate:
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:26 am
Screenshot_20220122-162216_Chrome.jpg
Exactly, "bald" is the wrong word.

In Pali the relevant words are, firstly, accha and khalita, which mean bald (i.e., lacking hair in places where hair would be expected); secondly, muṇḍa or muṇḍita, which mean with one's head hair closely shaven; thirdly, kesamassum avahaṭa, meaning with one's hair and beard both shaven; fourthly, virala, meaning that one is going bald or has very thin hair"; and fifthly, bhaṇḍu, which can mean either bald or shaven.

In the texts the Buddha is described as muṇḍa or as kesamassum avahaṭa, but never as accha, khalita, virala or bhaṇḍu. He, along with his disciples, is also jeered by brāhmaṇas using the derogatory expression muṇḍaka samaṇaka, "shaveling ascetic".
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Red Belly
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by Red Belly »

DNS wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:47 pm Jain monks and nuns pull the hair out with their hands and fingers. Ouch!

Thank goodness for the middle way. :meditate:
Too true! :lol:
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by Inedible »

DNS wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:38 pm Good responses above.

And the irony is that almost every Buddha statue shows him with very curly hair, often a lot of it. He was bald.
I read that this was caused by Greek influence on Buddhist art. An additional detail was that the hairs all curl to the right.
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by Pondera »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:34 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:15 am So former barbers aren’t allowed to shave their own heads. What about the other Bhikkhus?
The majority get another monk to shave their head, though a sizeable minority (including me) prefer to do their own.
Pondera wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:15 amWhat is the preferred method? Straight edge? Razor? Clippers?
The razor that you're given at your ordination is a straight-edge, but in Thailand nowadays very few monks ever use it. The preferred tool is an old-fashioned 3-piece single-blade Gillette with the safety bar removed.

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images.jpeg
I would imagine that for this device to do its job one would have to stay on top of the length of their hair. For example, two months of growth might make the razor very hard to use for the purposes of a shaved head.

I use a pair of clippers. Not for the purposes of shaving my entire head. Just the sides and the back. I keep the top long and style it back. With my red beard I like to think I look somewhat like a Viking.
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pilgrim
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by pilgrim »

I just went thru this thread and think it should also be mentioned that the Vinaya allows monks to grow their hair to no longer than 2 finger widths. That's about 3 cm. So those statues showing the Buddha with short curls are not exactly inaccurate
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

santa100 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:56 am
DNS wrote:And the irony is that almost every Buddha statue shows him with very curly hair, often a lot of it. He was bald.
That weird thingy on top of his head was supposedly a feature among His 32 Features of a Great Man ( only available to a Sammasambuddha or a Wheel-turning monarch ).
Image
The 'cranial protrusion'.
I think given this, although he may have sometimes shaved his head the Buddha probably did have a head of hair most of the time otherwise it would have been even more of a striking feature if fully shaved.
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That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


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thepea
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:38 pm Good responses above.

And the irony is that almost every Buddha statue shows him with very curly hair, often a lot of it. He was bald.
Prove it.
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:37 pm
DNS wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:38 pm Good responses above.

And the irony is that almost every Buddha statue shows him with very curly hair, often a lot of it. He was bald.
Prove it.
See Nicolas' post on page 1. Reposted here:
Nicolas wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:57 pm
Vinaya: Khandhaka: Cullavagga: Khuddaka wrote: Monks, long hair should not be worn. Whoever should wear it (long), there is an offence of wrong-doing. I allow it to be of a two months’ growth or two finger-breadths (in length).
Vasala Sutta (Snp 1.7) wrote: The brahmin saw the Radiant One coming from a distance and called out this to him: “Stop there, mere shaveling, stop there, vile ascetic, stop there, foul outcaste!” When this was said, the Radiant One said to the brahmin: “Do you know, brahmin, what an outcaste is or what things make a person ‘outcaste’?”
Sundarikabhāradvāja Sutta (Snp 3.4) wrote: It happened then that the brahmin saw the Radiant One seated at the foot of a tree not far away, but with his head covered. Seeing him, the brahmin grasped the sacrificial remains in his left hand and a water-vessel in his right and approached the Radiant One who, hearing his approach, uncovered his head. Then the brahmin thought:

This venerable one is shaven-headed, a mere shaveling” and desired to turn back. But it occurred to him: “Though shaven-headed there are some brahmins here like this. It would be good to inquire about his ‘birth’.”
(Indirectly connected: DN 2 implies the Buddha was relatively undistinguishable from other monks, and MN 81 has the Buddha Kassapa described as a "bald-pated recluse".)
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:22 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:37 pm
DNS wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:38 pm Good responses above.

And the irony is that almost every Buddha statue shows him with very curly hair, often a lot of it. He was bald.
Prove it.
See Nicolas' post on page 1. Reposted here:
Nicolas wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:57 pm
Vinaya: Khandhaka: Cullavagga: Khuddaka wrote: Monks, long hair should not be worn. Whoever should wear it (long), there is an offence of wrong-doing. I allow it to be of a two months’ growth or two finger-breadths (in length).
Vasala Sutta (Snp 1.7) wrote: The brahmin saw the Radiant One coming from a distance and called out this to him: “Stop there, mere shaveling, stop there, vile ascetic, stop there, foul outcaste!” When this was said, the Radiant One said to the brahmin: “Do you know, brahmin, what an outcaste is or what things make a person ‘outcaste’?”
Sundarikabhāradvāja Sutta (Snp 3.4) wrote: It happened then that the brahmin saw the Radiant One seated at the foot of a tree not far away, but with his head covered. Seeing him, the brahmin grasped the sacrificial remains in his left hand and a water-vessel in his right and approached the Radiant One who, hearing his approach, uncovered his head. Then the brahmin thought:

This venerable one is shaven-headed, a mere shaveling” and desired to turn back. But it occurred to him: “Though shaven-headed there are some brahmins here like this. It would be good to inquire about his ‘birth’.”
(Indirectly connected: DN 2 implies the Buddha was relatively undistinguishable from other monks, and MN 81 has the Buddha Kassapa described as a "bald-pated recluse".)
Bald-having a scalp wholly or partly lacking hair.

I would interpret bald as one who is incapable of growing hair at all in some parts of the scalp or at all. I would also consider bald to be a freshly shaved head if razor takes hair to scalp(a skin head). Does this seem reasonable definition?
From the suttas and depictions of Buddha it seems he took hair down short below two fingers, so a tight to scalp cut but not technically bald.
Given the statues and pictures showing him with black hairline seems odd to think he was bald.
The fat happy Buddha seems to be bald, is your Buddha fat or thin? The weight gain in his latter years could explain the hair loss. Probably from eating to much fish.
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

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thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:40 pm Bald-having a scalp wholly or partly lacking hair.

I would interpret bald as one who is incapable of growing hair at all in some parts of the scalp or at all. I would also consider bald to be a freshly shaved head if razor takes hair to scalp(a skin head). Does this seem reasonable definition?
Yes, completely shaven or incapable of growing hair. Although it is rare that a man cannot grow any hair at all as the male-pattern-baldness still includes the ability to grow hair on the back and sides. Men who are completely bald typically are that way due to shaving. (i.e., many men lose their hair on the top, but not the back or sides)

Image
Male-pattern-baldness, seen here with Socrates
From the suttas and depictions of Buddha it seems he took hair down short below two fingers, so a tight to scalp cut but not technically bald.
Given the statues and pictures showing him with black hairline seems odd to think he was bald.
The fat happy Buddha seems to be bald, is your Buddha fat or thin? The weight gain in his latter years could explain the hair loss. Probably from eating to much fish.
The statues were made much later, after the parinibbana of the Buddha. The statues of the fat Buddha are of Hotei, a 9th century CE Chinese monk.
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:34 am
thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:40 pm Bald-having a scalp wholly or partly lacking hair.

I would interpret bald as one who is incapable of growing hair at all in some parts of the scalp or at all. I would also consider bald to be a freshly shaved head if razor takes hair to scalp(a skin head). Does this seem reasonable definition?
Yes, completely shaven or incapable of growing hair. Although it is rare that a man cannot grow any hair at all as the male-pattern-baldness still includes the ability to grow hair on the back and sides. Men who are completely bald typically are that way due to shaving. (i.e., many men lose their hair on the top, but not the back or sides)

Image
Male-pattern-baldness, seen here with Socrates
From the suttas and depictions of Buddha it seems he took hair down short below two fingers, so a tight to scalp cut but not technically bald.
Given the statues and pictures showing him with black hairline seems odd to think he was bald.
The fat happy Buddha seems to be bald, is your Buddha fat or thin? The weight gain in his latter years could explain the hair loss. Probably from eating to much fish.
The statues were made much later, after the parinibbana of the Buddha. The statues of the fat Buddha are of Hotei, a 9th century CE Chinese monk.
Seems undetermined whether Buddha kept a bald head or a low crop hairdo.
This is why I asked you to qualify your statement as it appeared an absolute, when in reality it’s merely a belief.
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:34 am
thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:40 pm Bald-having a scalp wholly or partly lacking hair.

I would interpret bald as one who is incapable of growing hair at all in some parts of the scalp or at all. I would also consider bald to be a freshly shaved head if razor takes hair to scalp(a skin head). Does this seem reasonable definition?
Yes, completely shaven or incapable of growing hair. Although it is rare that a man cannot grow any hair at all as the male-pattern-baldness still includes the ability to grow hair on the back and sides. Men who are completely bald typically are that way due to shaving. (i.e., many men lose their hair on the top, but not the back or sides)

Image
Male-pattern-baldness, seen here with Socrates
From the suttas and depictions of Buddha it seems he took hair down short below two fingers, so a tight to scalp cut but not technically bald.
Given the statues and pictures showing him with black hairline seems odd to think he was bald.
The fat happy Buddha seems to be bald, is your Buddha fat or thin? The weight gain in his latter years could explain the hair loss. Probably from eating to much fish.
The statues were made much later, after the parinibbana of the Buddha. The statues of the fat Buddha are of Hotei, a 9th century CE Chinese monk.
Seems undetermined whether Buddha kept a bald head or a low crop hairdo.
This is why I asked you to qualify your statement as it appeared an absolute, when in reality it’s merely a belief.
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Re: Buddha wasnt bald-headed !

Post by Nicolas »

thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:40 pm From the suttas and depictions of Buddha it seems he took hair down short below two fingers, so a tight to scalp cut but not technically bald.
thepea wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:27 am Seems undetermined whether Buddha kept a bald head or a low crop hairdo.
Monastics use a razor to shave their head, which would cut the hair down to the scalp ("skinhead").
The hair then grows back until they shave it off again completely. As such, at any given moment, the length of a monastic's hair or the Buddha's hair would range between zero and two finger-widths, or shorter if they shave more frequently.
Vinaya: Khandhaka: Cullavagga: Khuddaka wrote: “I allow, monks, a razor, a whetstone, a razor-case, a piece of felt, and all a barber’s equipment.”
[...]
“Monks, you should not have the hair of your heads cut off with scissors. Whoever should (so) have it cut off, there is an offence of wrong-doing.”
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