what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

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what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

they are mostly not effective because mood is a mental phenomenon
3
8%
if used under the administration and supervision of a healthcare professional, they can be effective
10
27%
there are better therapies found outside of western medicine
4
11%
blind breaking in supposedly placebo controlled randomized trials invalidates the majority of psychotropic drug studies
2
5%
there is virtually no difference between recreational drugs and legal drugs
1
3%
these drugs treat symptoms without fixing the causes
8
22%
dhamma can't solve all your problems
3
8%
the mind is an epiphenomenon of the brain
0
No votes
the brain is an epiphenomenon of the mind
1
3%
other
5
14%
 
Total votes: 37

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Crazy cloud wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:09 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:52 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:48 pm learned to cope with it after I trusted awareness completely.
I'm glad it helped :) But, it's virtually impossible to trust your awareness when your awareness tell you the ceiling fan is talking to you.
And without knowledge and experience with Buddhas teachings, I would be totally lost, or dead by now.
What I know is that without the medication, my brother would be lost or dead by now. Or, too busy literally talking to ceiling fans and thinking they are actually talking back to him...And sometimes people think I'm just joking when I say things like that, but I'm not...

Can't practice Buddhism when you are too busy talking to ceiling fans. Sometimes, Buddhism is just not good enough, especially so when your brain circuits don't operate properly.
Buddhas teaching is the best way to control it
That may be the case for you but it's certainly not the case for everyone. Although, to think of it in term of either/or, as if somehow medication and Buddhism are somehow mutually exclusive, is a misguided idea. For many people, taking the medication is the very thing that allows them to learn and practice Buddhism to begin with. Without which they would be unable to do so, especially so when brain circuits are not operating properly, which is a biological malfunction of the brain. The Buddha's teaching is not the best way to deal with actual brain damage. Just like it's not the best way to deal with cancer or heart disease.
Without elaborating on the specifics, I did much more than just talking to ceiling fans ... And I was put on some mind-controlling drugs that contained the "madness" into a smaller space of being. But that was even worse because now I was trapped in a confined space where there was no space for reflecting and seeing what was going on, I had become the going on, completely. I tried this hellish state for almost a year, - a year where I tried to gather as much knowledge about these symptoms and the way it was treated by the powers that be. And to make the story short, concluding that this is just wrong, and based on a lack of knowing what consciousness really is, so I quit all drugs and went back to basic practice.
So, now I'm out of it, and the same powers that be that mishandled me are saying that they can't do anything for me, other than making it worse. So, they leave me alone, and that's fine. And in the meantime, I look into these new interesting treatments with psychedelic-assisted psychotherapies and developments around the endocannabinoid system.

If they knew more about the realities around talking to ceiling fans, and not judge it as madness and create hysteria, much more could be done to cure people, in my opinion.

Maybe it's not for all to do the practice, but I would say that to do anything at all, one must have access to the whole of one's consciousness, to see things clearly, and not clouded with this or that drug.

You talk about the brain, but how do you know that one needs a perfect brain if the brain is in consciousness? I have never experienced any kind of matter outside consciousness, have you?
It's possible to overcome mental illness through Buddhist practice. There's even an example of it in the suttas if I recall correctly. But a more grounded approach, for lack of a better term, is probably a good idea. If stopping the meds worked for you, then great. But I believe most people need to be stable enough to practice correctly. Otherwise they can make the problem worse. I have experience with these three scenarios and I would advise more prudency.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta
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Crazy cloud
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Crazy cloud »

I would agree with Buddha when he told us to not believe in anybody and their teachings. If one follows the pointing, one ends up with consciousness and awareness, aka: the end of the world, and the end of suffering.
Stop trusting the world, and trust awareness!
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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seeker242
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by seeker242 »

Crazy cloud wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:09 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:52 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:48 pm learned to cope with it after I trusted awareness completely.
I'm glad it helped :) But, it's virtually impossible to trust your awareness when your awareness tell you the ceiling fan is talking to you.
And without knowledge and experience with Buddhas teachings, I would be totally lost, or dead by now.
What I know is that without the medication, my brother would be lost or dead by now. Or, too busy literally talking to ceiling fans and thinking they are actually talking back to him...And sometimes people think I'm just joking when I say things like that, but I'm not...

Can't practice Buddhism when you are too busy talking to ceiling fans. Sometimes, Buddhism is just not good enough, especially so when your brain circuits don't operate properly.
Buddhas teaching is the best way to control it
That may be the case for you but it's certainly not the case for everyone. Although, to think of it in term of either/or, as if somehow medication and Buddhism are somehow mutually exclusive, is a misguided idea. For many people, taking the medication is the very thing that allows them to learn and practice Buddhism to begin with. Without which they would be unable to do so, especially so when brain circuits are not operating properly, which is a biological malfunction of the brain. The Buddha's teaching is not the best way to deal with actual brain damage. Just like it's not the best way to deal with cancer or heart disease.
Without elaborating on the specifics, I did much more than just talking to ceiling fans ... And I was put on some mind-controlling drugs that contained the "madness" into a smaller space of being. But that was even worse because now I was trapped in a confined space where there was no space for reflecting and seeing what was going on, I had become the going on, completely. I tried this hellish state for almost a year, - a year where I tried to gather as much knowledge about these symptoms and the way it was treated by the powers that be. And to make the story short, concluding that this is just wrong, and based on a lack of knowing what consciousness really is, so I quit all drugs and went back to basic practice.
So, now I'm out of it, and the same powers that be that mishandled me are saying that they can't do anything for me, other than making it worse. So, they leave me alone, and that's fine. And in the meantime, I look into these new interesting treatments with psychedelic-assisted psychotherapies and developments around the endocannabinoid system.

If they knew more about the realities around talking to ceiling fans, and not judge it as madness and create hysteria, much more could be done to cure people, in my opinion.

Maybe it's not for all to do the practice, but I would say that to do anything at all, one must have access to the whole of one's consciousness, to see things clearly, and not clouded with this or that drug.

You talk about the brain, but how do you know that one needs a perfect brain if the brain is in consciousness? I have never experienced any kind of matter outside consciousness, have you?
That's good for you and all but to say that someone doesn't need meds and all they need is just Buddhism, is just PLAIN WRONG. You are not the same as other people so to make blanket statements like that is just ignorant.

I see how my brother thinks and behaves on and off the meds, and there is no doubt AT ALL that he is MUCH better with them. If all he had was Buddhism, he would be MUCH WORSE. And neither you nor anyone can say otherwise.
one must have access to the whole of one's consciousness, to see things clearly, and not clouded with this or that drug.
And what you are not recognizing is the FACT that the illness itself, for many people, does MUCH MORE clouding of the mind, than any drug does, that is used treat it.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Crazy cloud »

seeker242 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:10 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:09 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:52 pm

I'm glad it helped :) But, it's virtually impossible to trust your awareness when your awareness tell you the ceiling fan is talking to you.



What I know is that without the medication, my brother would be lost or dead by now. Or, too busy literally talking to ceiling fans and thinking they are actually talking back to him...And sometimes people think I'm just joking when I say things like that, but I'm not...

Can't practice Buddhism when you are too busy talking to ceiling fans. Sometimes, Buddhism is just not good enough, especially so when your brain circuits don't operate properly.



That may be the case for you but it's certainly not the case for everyone. Although, to think of it in term of either/or, as if somehow medication and Buddhism are somehow mutually exclusive, is a misguided idea. For many people, taking the medication is the very thing that allows them to learn and practice Buddhism to begin with. Without which they would be unable to do so, especially so when brain circuits are not operating properly, which is a biological malfunction of the brain. The Buddha's teaching is not the best way to deal with actual brain damage. Just like it's not the best way to deal with cancer or heart disease.
Without elaborating on the specifics, I did much more than just talking to ceiling fans ... And I was put on some mind-controlling drugs that contained the "madness" into a smaller space of being. But that was even worse because now I was trapped in a confined space where there was no space for reflecting and seeing what was going on, I had become the going on, completely. I tried this hellish state for almost a year, - a year where I tried to gather as much knowledge about these symptoms and the way it was treated by the powers that be. And to make the story short, concluding that this is just wrong, and based on a lack of knowing what consciousness really is, so I quit all drugs and went back to basic practice.
So, now I'm out of it, and the same powers that be that mishandled me are saying that they can't do anything for me, other than making it worse. So, they leave me alone, and that's fine. And in the meantime, I look into these new interesting treatments with psychedelic-assisted psychotherapies and developments around the endocannabinoid system.

If they knew more about the realities around talking to ceiling fans, and not judge it as madness and create hysteria, much more could be done to cure people, in my opinion.

Maybe it's not for all to do the practice, but I would say that to do anything at all, one must have access to the whole of one's consciousness, to see things clearly, and not clouded with this or that drug.

You talk about the brain, but how do you know that one needs a perfect brain if the brain is in consciousness? I have never experienced any kind of matter outside consciousness, have you?
That's good for you and all but to say that someone doesn't need meds and all they need is just Buddhism, is just PLAIN WRONG. You are not the same as other people so to make blanket statements like that is just ignorant.

I see how my brother thinks and behaves on and off the meds, and there is no doubt AT ALL that he is MUCH better with them. If all he had was Buddhism, he would be MUCH WORSE. And neither you nor anyone can say otherwise.
one must have access to the whole of one's consciousness, to see things clearly, and not clouded with this or that drug.
And what you are not recognizing is the FACT that the illness itself, for many people, does MUCH MORE clouding of the mind, than any drug does, that is used treat it.
I don't say anything else but sharing my own experiences about having a condition and how I solved the problem. What others do is not for me to say. And of course, when the mind has been conditioned with drugs, legal or illegal, there will be some problems getting off the "cure". I don't know anything about illness, I know about classification of illnesses, and that's called " diagnosis". And the powers that be don't care what causes this classification; they try to stop or change a behaviour. And as long as the cause is there, the illness will proceed.

I don't say Buddha is all you need; I tell you to need all your mental capacity.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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seeker242
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by seeker242 »

Crazy cloud wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:47 pm

I don't say Buddha is all you need;
You said "Buddhas teaching is the best way to control it" when I started talking about my brother That is FALSE. No if ands or buts about it.
I tell you to need all your mental capacity.
And for a lot of people, taking the medication IS how you get the most mental capacity. My brother has a MUCH CLEARER mind when he is taking the drugs and nothing you or anyone else can say will change that fact. It is a FACT and it is indisputable.
befriend
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by befriend »

Vigorous exercise and meditation because of their ability to relax the body can bring forth the cause of the symptoms I was somewhat convinced I was possessed by a Mara or yakkha until recently I understood it was childhood trauma PTSD. When the body can relax a lot the issue is in the tissue or your memories are In your body these things spring up when your body relaxes. Psychotropics can have side effects but they are good at bringing the mind out of flight fright flee response. It's more Buddhist to take these drugs if you didn't you could harm yourself or someone else that's not dhammic.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Crazy cloud »

befriend wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:27 pm Psychotropics can have side effects but they are good at bringing the mind out of flight fright flee response. It's more Buddhist to take these drugs if you didn't you could harm yourself or someone else that's not dhammic.
From those who do researches on the use of psychedelics in the treatment of mood disorders and PTSD, I've heard no such thing as side effects, but I heard a lot about such effects from those trying these means on their own. Included in treatment are screening of patients and ordinary talks before and after as follow-ups. The point is to let go of controlling the mind, maybe get a mind-blowing experience, and trusting the minds ability to correct itself, - and that ability is something I believe to be a matter of fact. The mind knows its way home and can lead you there.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
sphairos
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by sphairos »

Crazy cloud wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:54 pm The mind knows its way home and can lead you there.
Sometimes id does, and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, it's a psychological disease, and the mind can't heal itself on its own.

ADHD is not a psychological disease, but rather a variety of norm. Schizophrenia, depression, PTSD etc. are diseases.
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Crazy cloud »

sphairos wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:59 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:54 pm The mind knows its way home and can lead you there.
Sometimes id does, and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, it's a psychological disease, and the mind can't heal itself on its own.

ADHD is not a psychological disease, but rather a variety of norm. Schizophrenia, depression, PTSD etc. are diseases.
I don't know what might prevent one from accessing this ability, I just know it's there.
I find Gabor to be wise and true.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
sphairos
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by sphairos »

Crazy cloud wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 5:13 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:59 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:54 pm The mind knows its way home and can lead you there.
Sometimes id does, and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, it's a psychological disease, and the mind can't heal itself on its own.

ADHD is not a psychological disease, but rather a variety of norm. Schizophrenia, depression, PTSD etc. are diseases.
I don't know what might prevent one from accessing this ability, I just know it's there.
I find Gabor to be wise and true.
He usually means a different trauma -- a traumatic event in the past. Acute PTSD, like in veterans of the war, is almost always absolutely uncurable by the mind alone. But yes, with the Ayahuasca it's treatable.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

sphairos wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:41 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 5:13 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:59 pm

Sometimes id does, and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, it's a psychological disease, and the mind can't heal itself on its own.

ADHD is not a psychological disease, but rather a variety of norm. Schizophrenia, depression, PTSD etc. are diseases.
I don't know what might prevent one from accessing this ability, I just know it's there.
I find Gabor to be wise and true.
He usually means a different trauma -- a traumatic event in the past. Acute PTSD, like in veterans of the war, is almost always absolutely uncurable by the mind alone. But yes, with the Ayahuasca it's treatable.
This is hearsay, but many monks that fled Tibet, after being tortured in prison, do not have symptoms of PTSD. This is attributed to meditation practice. I cannot give you a citation, but I'm pretty sure this is true.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta
sphairos
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by sphairos »

Modus.Ponens wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:06 pm This is hearsay, but many monks that fled Tibet, after being tortured in prison, do not have symptoms of PTSD. This is attributed to meditation practice. I cannot give you a citation, but I'm pretty sure this is true.
Looks very believable, as only about 15% of veterans develop PTSD:
Operations Iraqi Freedom (OIF) and Enduring Freedom (OEF): About 11-20 out of every 100 Veterans (or between 11-20%) who served in OIF or OEF have PTSD in a given year.
Gulf War (Desert Storm): About 12 out of every 100 Gulf War Veterans (or 12%) have PTSD in a given year.
Vietnam War: About 15 out of every 100 Vietnam Veterans (or 15%) were currently diagnosed with PTSD at the time of the most recent study in the late 1980s, the National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study (NVVRS). It is estimated that about 30 out of every 100 (or 30%) of Vietnam Veterans have had PTSD in their lifetime.

https://www.ptsd.va.gov/understand/comm ... terans.asp
The latest research shows that there are a few specific genes (SNPs) that predict if one develops PTSD after exposure to some life threat. Most people have inbuilt resiliency to such threats (to some extent). But some are more "fragile". But behaviourally you can hardly predict who. But genetically you likely can.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by befriend »

Modus.Ponens wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:06 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:41 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 5:13 pm

I don't know what might prevent one from accessing this ability, I just know it's there.
I find Gabor to be wise and true.
He usually means a different trauma -- a traumatic event in the past. Acute PTSD, like in veterans of the war, is almost always absolutely uncurable by the mind alone. But yes, with the Ayahuasca it's treatable.
This is hearsay, but many monks that fled Tibet, after being tortured in prison, do not have symptoms of PTSD. This is attributed to meditation practice. I cannot give you a citation, but I'm pretty sure this is true.
This is true I know of one case atleast who was the Dalai lamas doctor when he was being tortured by the Chinese military or whatever he would think of how they were going to hell for torturing him he did get angry at times but would arouse this notion of kamma vipaka and have compassion for their future suffering in hell. This level of compassion is what helped him not to develop ptsd.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Crazy cloud »

befriend wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:48 pm
This is true I know of one case atleast who was the Dalai lamas doctor when he was being tortured by the Chinese military or whatever he would think of how they were going to hell for torturing him he did get angry at times but would arouse this notion of kamma vipaka and have compassion for their future suffering in hell. This level of compassion is what helped him not to develop ptsd.
This is a valid point in my opinion which is based on how I came to terms with my own traumas. When looking into this whole bundle of suffering, and seeing it from the background of Buddha's teachings, I couldn't find anyone to blame, it was cause and effects, running through the family and cultural systems I grew up in. Complex PTSD is hard to solve, but at least when one can let go of being a victim, it becomes easier or more clear.

BTW; tomorrow I have an appointment with my GP and will ask her to apply to be screened for admittance to a locally based research project where they use MDMA in the treatment of PTSD.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Crazy cloud »

sphairos wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:41 pm

He usually means a different trauma -- a traumatic event in the past. Acute PTSD, like in veterans of the war, is almost always absolutely uncurable by the mind alone. But yes, with the Ayahuasca it's treatable.
I've listened a lot to Gabor, and a few other specialists on trauma treatment, and never heard any of them putting it as you do. In fact, I recall hearing that prolonged childhood traumas were more complicated than a single shock event.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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