Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Biija wrote:Is there any similar case in the suttas?

Not quite the same circumstance, but a related case is discussed in MN 65.

MN 65: Bhaddāli Sutta wrote: "Bhikkhus, I eat at a single session. By so doing, I am free from illness and affliction, and I enjoy lightness, strength, and a comfortable abiding. Come, bhikkhus, eat at a single session. By so doing, you too will be free from illness and affliction, and you will enjoy lightness, strength, and a comfortable abiding.”

When this was said, the venerable Bhaddāli told the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, I am not willing to eat at a single session; for if I were to do so, I might have worry and anxiety about it.”

“Then, Bhaddāli, eat one part there where you are invited and bring away one part to eat. By eating in that way, you will maintain yourself.”

Dear Biija

When I stayed in a (Thai) monastery first time, I suffered terribly from the food which - compared to what I was used to in Switzerland - seemed to contain almost no nourishment. I thought all monasteries were like this but that is not true.

I guess the many hours without food made your body eat your reserves - which you didn't have!

"Lax" Thai monasteries eat breakfast and lunch which would make it easier for your body and they let you drink as much soya milk and ovaltine as you like in the afternoon, evening and at night. If you are a serious monk and radiate love and sympathy, Thai laywomen will pamper you with specially rich food.

There are thousands of serious, intelligent young men staying in "lax" monasteries. There are good teachers too in "lax" monasteries. Community monasteries serve many needs. They are the local funeral home, parenting and marriage counseling service, orphanage. They are an asylum for old monks and a student dormitory for young monks studying in the university... and a place where serious monks can study and meditate.

The Abbot, Teacher or Headmonk will set the tone regarding Vinaya. In a normal Thai monastery you cannot criticize the Abbot / Teacher / Headmonk or pretend to know better (even if you do know better). You should not say "but", question questions, make your seniors lose face. None of this is necessary to progress as a monk. And you shouldn't make a serious, smile-less face because for Thais a serious face means offence. Smile, study, meditate... and never underestimate the other monks. In Thailand there are many monks who flow along without showing their depth and will surprise you with their knowledge and experience when you approach them with humility.

It would be a pity if you would give up just because your body is not strong enough for a forest monastery.

I wish you success!

Martin

i might be pushy but :

did you send e-mail to a monastery ? and do you have just one monastery in mind or are there others ?

culaavuso wrote:

Biija wrote:Is there any similar case in the suttas?

Not quite the same circumstance, but a related case is discussed in MN 65.

[/quote]

Thanks, Culaavuso. Here's a text written by Ajahn Brahmavanso entitled "The Time and Place for Eating".

"Though solid foods are disallowed outside of the morning period, other substances were allowed in the afternoon or evening, especially where there is a need such as sickness. Strained fruit and vegetable juices are allowable in the afternoon, especially for thirsty monks and nuns. Then the five traditional Indian 'medicines' of ghee, oil, butter/cheese, honey and sugar were allowed in the afternoon as a 'tonic', to be used for such reasons as when a monk or nun had been working hard, when it was very cold, or when they had received insufficient almsfood that morning. Clear meat or bean broths are allowed in the afternoon for very sick monks or nuns. Drinks like tea, herbal infusions, ginger, cocoa and coffee are also allowable in the afternoon as much as a monk or nun requires. Milk, however, is the subject of some controversy. Some monks say it is allowable in the afternoon, some say it isn't and our tradition says it 'aint."

Source: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/eating.html

martinfrank wrote: I guess the many hours without food made your body eat your reserves - which you didn't have!

Hi, Martin. Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I do agree. My body languished bit by bit. I also partially agree when you say about the Thai food. Although I had access to high quality food at Wat Pah Nanachat, some of them seems to be almost empty in terms of nutritional value (=too light). Anyway, I was always very thankful for whatever sort of food I had when staying there. At some point, I will think about other traditions. By the way, would you recommend some? Again, thanks for all your tips.

purple planet wrote:i might be pushy but :

did you send e-mail to a monastery ? and do you have just one monastery in mind or are there others ?

Hi, Purple planet. No, you're not pushy.
Answer: No, not yet. I thought about sending, but I still want to ripen the idea. I thought about visiting Amaravati. Would you recommend any other monastery, either western or eastern?

I didnt have any monastery in mind just wanted to know how "flexible" you are in your choices - if you have more choices than just one place

sure its a good idea to wait till the idea ripens - just was worried you wouldn't tell them about your health at all - some reasons to tell :

1 . i think its a good way to see how nice are the people in the monastery
2 . its good to know if they can and willing to supply you the food you want afternoon (you need to tell them about your health problem so they understand the importance of the food you need)
3 . you dont want them to get mad at you for doing something they might not approve - even if you find a solution thats in perfect accord with the vinyana

im sure you thought of all that i said im just saying it in case you didnt


(though i didnt have any monastry in mind if i am asked than i would recommend any place that goes by "my" "technique" so every place that goes by the teachings of Phra Dhammamangalajarn Tong Sirimangalo - you can try this monastery : Wat Chomtong in thailand e-mail : [email protected] )

but all this things as you are planing to contact the monastry about this

so finding solution to someone who needs a special diet - which might be problematic in monstrosities ...

Biija wrote:

purple planet wrote:i might be pushy but :

did you send e-mail to a monastery ? and do you have just one monastery in mind or are there others ?

Hi, Purple planet. No, you're not pushy.
Answer: No, not yet. I thought about sending, but I still want to ripen the idea. I thought about visiting Amaravati. Would you recommend any other monastery, either western or eastern?

Abhayagiri in Northern California serves two meals a day.

as far as i know Wat Chomtong also serves 2 meals a day (6:30 and 11:30) of course you should check it before going there

How much do you eat regularly? - if you eat 2 huge meals a day (6:30 and 11:30) is it enough ?

purple planet wrote: just was worried you wouldn't tell them about your health at all

I would never do such a thing. It never crossed my mind. I just think that it may be better to talk about my case in person rather than by email. Maybe, I haven't been so clear. Thanks for your suggestions.

Mkoll wrote: Abhayagiri in Northern California serves two meals a day.

Thanks, Mkoll. I will have a look.

purple planet wrote:as far as i know Wat Chomtong also serves 2 meals a day (6:30 and 11:30) of course you should check it before going there
How much do you eat regularly? - if you eat 2 huge meals a day (6:30 and 11:30) is it enough?

I don't really know. It depends on the caloric expenditure. For example, at Wat Pah Nanachat, the monks do many chores, sometimes heavy chores. They have periods of "work projects". Monks also walk a lot, because it is a forest monastery. Therefore, it's difficult to calculate. But I will only know when I start living in a certain monastery again. I will search about Wat Chomtong.

Maybe it would be worth trying to find monasteries that allow monks to consume milk, honey and chocolate throughout the day? These food are grey areas in interpreting the Vinaya, and some monasteries allow them. Milk, honey and chocolate are great for hunger pangs!

This may some help to you.
==============

"And what is the taking on of a practice that is painful in the present but yields pleasure in the future? There is the case of a person who is normally strongly passionate by nature and frequently experiences pain & grief born of passion; a person who is normally strongly aversive by nature and frequently experiences pain & grief born of aversion; a person who is normally strongly deluded by nature and frequently experiences pain & grief born of delusion. Even though touched with pain & grief, crying with a tearful face, he lives the holy life that is utterly perfect, surpassingly pure. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the good bourn, the heavenly world. This is called the taking on of a practice that is painful in the present but yields pleasure in the future.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Biija, I have spent time in Thailand as a samanera, and most recently, as an anagarika at my home temple. My thoughts as to your question would be similar to others...research the different wats. There are many good wats in Thailand, and each of them is run by a different abbot, and I'm guessing each has its own protocols about frequency and type of pre-midday meals. Wat Nanachat has the reputation and storied history, but it may be on one end of the spectrum in terms of asceticism. There may well be Thai town and city wats (or US wats like Abhayagiri, as was mentioned) where the Vinaya observance is strong, but not brutal. You could ordain there, and at least be assured that you won't have health issues related to food intake. As it is Vassa in Thailand now, a lot of monks on internet forums are not presently online, but perhaps wait until Vassa ends and start a dialogue with some of the farang monks now living in Thailand about which wat would be a good fit for you. You may get the "skinny" on where not to get too skinny.

my physique resembles yours, once i fasted for 7 days trying to cure certain illness i have and experienced similar bodily reactions, by day 7 i was almost dead, lack of energy to even sit straight, let alone drastic weight loss bordering dystrophy, i was free of any physical exertions at that time

seems like for certain people Vinaya dietary regimen isn't that much far from fasting

Biija wrote:

purple planet wrote: just was worried you wouldn't tell them about your health at all

I would never do such a thing. It never crossed my mind. I just think that it may be better to talk about my case in person rather than by email. Maybe, I haven't been so clear. Thanks for your suggestions.

Mkoll wrote: Abhayagiri in Northern California serves two meals a day.

Thanks, Mkoll. I will have a look.

purple planet wrote:as far as i know Wat Chomtong also serves 2 meals a day (6:30 and 11:30) of course you should check it before going there
How much do you eat regularly? - if you eat 2 huge meals a day (6:30 and 11:30) is it enough?

I don't really know. It depends on the caloric expenditure. For example, at Wat Pah Nanachat, the monks do many chores, sometimes heavy chores. They have periods of "work projects". Monks also walk a lot, because it is a forest monastery. Therefore, it's difficult to calculate. But I will only know when I start living in a certain monastery again. I will search about Wat Chomtong.

i would suggest that E- mail is better - so you dont travel to somewhere to get "no" for an answer - especially cause E-mail is easy for them to answer also

how many meals do you eat regularly - 3 -4 or more ? for instance if you only eat 3 regulary than eating 2 huge ones dont seem like much of a difference

In second thought : it seem to me that even if you go to a monastery which will allow 2 huge meals - and will also have quality nutritious food and allow and will have choclate and ice-cream to eat after noon - i would still not take a chance cause its not worth risking your stay at a monastery - while you are there for some time you may try to reduce slowly your food intake and see how it goes and do it for a short time each time (a week for example) - and if the idea goes bad you can still return back to eating 3-4 meals without worry of what the abbot may say - although if you find a monastery that allows to eat after noon than i see no reason in your case not to continue eating regularly - it seems to me that its even the wholesome way of action - maybe even the abbot would agree with this thought and support you in eating after noon

ask by E-mail if they will allow you 3-4 meals a day - and you can ask several monastries - and see who is the more accepting of your situation ...