Lockdown Stress

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Sam Vara
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by Sam Vara »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:19 pm
Hi monk. no thats not what i meant. Once one king ask buddha about highest pleasure. buddha ask king if his pelasure is more or monk who can sit without moving body and maintain higest pleasure is superior pleasuire...
its in one sutta.
You might be thinking of MN 14, where other wanderers ask the Buddha whether his pleasure is superior to King Bimbisara's. The Buddha's point is not that sitting perfectly still is the highest pleasure, but that he can maintain a higher pleasure than the King, and for longer, by means of sitting quietly in meditation. The King, presumably, needs to actively engage in eating, sex, listening to music, etc.
https://suttacentral.net/mn14/en/sujato
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Bundokji
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by Bundokji »

Yesterday i noticed an anxiety arising in my mind, not from lockdown, but from having to deal with public neurosis when the lockdown is lifted. On the one hand, for someone who is mortal, obsessing about all the possible ways that one can die or cause other beings to die is not the best way to spend our time here, but on the other hand, such obsession is now encouraged by authorities which makes the limits of responsibility unclear. There is no common agreement between people on what are the reasonable limits of being cautious/mindful under the current circumstances, hence the limits of legal and moral responsibility becomes equally unclear.

Interestingly, usually the best antidote to OCD is to encounter what you are afraid of. For example, gramophobes can be treated by getting them to deal with something they perceive as "dirty". When OCD becomes a public policy, it does not only cause stress to individuals who suffer from OCD, but to individuals who perceive the nature of OCD as self-fulfilling and find no virtues in being obsessed.

In other words, developing an inner equilibrium of how to perceive risk in a reasonable way does not necessarily align with the rest of the population. To give another example: in the building i live in, one of the neighbours placed a hand sanitizer in the elevator with a note asking people to use it to clean the elevator buttons after pressing them. Such measures does not align with my ideal which includes a certain degree of trust in the unknown, and that being obsessed on how i might infect others would open a pandora box of obsessions, and yet, would my rejection to adhere to what he asked for be considered a betrayal of public trust? would it be appropriate to define my lack of adherence to this new rule intentional way of infecting people? To make the problem even worse, if i get infected, the neighbours would know because the government is locking down entire neighbourhoods when they discover a new case, and if they ask me whether i ve been sanitizing the elevator when i am using it, i am not going to lie and say yes.

To sum up: the disease as i perceive it is more mental than physical. Maybe i am influenced by the Buddhist practice of perceiving the two as separate and that physical suffering should not necessarily lead to mental suffering. I never enjoyed dealing directly with people, and nowadays, i dislike it even more.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
JohnK
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by JohnK »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:13 pm Yesterday i noticed an anxiety arising in my mind, not from lockdown, but from having to deal with public neurosis
Greetings, Bundokji, sorry to hear about your anxiety/dukkha.
At least to some extent , it seems to be related to to your view that your are dealing with neuroses and disorders rather than reasonable requests to avoid rapid spread.
There is no common agreement between people on what are the reasonable limits of being cautious/mindful under the current circumstances, hence the limits of legal and moral responsibility becomes equally unclear.
So, one response to that would be to (w/o aversion) just err on the side of caution.
When OCD becomes a public policy
I can certainly see how holding this view would lead to dukkha (vs. seeing such policy as "reasonable measures suggested by health professionals"
...developing an inner equilibrium of how to perceive risk in a reasonable way does not necessarily align with the rest of the population
An such non-alignment can either be a cause of dukkha or not.
…in the building i live in, one of the neighbours placed a hand sanitizer in the elevator with a note asking people to use it to clean the elevator buttons after pressing them. Such measures does not align with my ideal which includes a certain degree of trust in the unknown, and that being obsessed on how i might infect others would open a pandora box of obsessions, and yet, would my rejection to adhere to what he asked for be considered a betrayal of public trust? would it be appropriate to define my lack of adherence to this new rule intentional way of infecting people? To make the problem even worse, if i get infected, the neighbours would know because the government is locking down entire neighbourhoods when they discover a new case, and if they ask me whether i ve been sanitizing the elevator when i am using it, i am not going to lie and say yes.
Yes, a lot of stress here -- it would probably be easier to just clean the buttons.
Maybe i am influenced by the Buddhist practice of perceiving the two as separate and that physical suffering should not necessarily lead to mental suffering.
The disease, through various subsequent causes and conditions is clearly leading to mental suffering/anxiety.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Polar Bear
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by Polar Bear »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:13 pm In the building i live in, one of the neighbours placed a hand sanitizer in the elevator with a note asking people to use it to clean the elevator buttons after pressing them.
I think that is a legit weird request. If anything you’d use the hand sanitizer to clean your hands after touching the buttons.

I mean, the image of some guy rubbing hand sanitizer on an elevator button (with what, his pointer finger?) is laughable, ridiculous.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Sam Vara
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by Sam Vara »

Polar Bear wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:06 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:13 pm In the building i live in, one of the neighbours placed a hand sanitizer in the elevator with a note asking people to use it to clean the elevator buttons after pressing them.
I think that is a legit weird request. If anything you’d use the hand sanitizer to clean your hands after touching the buttons.

I mean, the image of some guy rubbing hand sanitizer on an elevator button (with what, his pointer finger?) is laughable, ridiculous.

:anjali:
Agreed. One current advantage of being a dog owner is that I always have a stash of doggie poo bags which I can use as a makeshift glove to push buttons and operate door handles etc. No risk to me, or to anyone else.

OK, it's a single-use plastic bag, but don't tell them on DWE...
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Bundokji
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by Bundokji »

Polar Bear wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:06 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:13 pm In the building i live in, one of the neighbours placed a hand sanitizer in the elevator with a note asking people to use it to clean the elevator buttons after pressing them.
I think that is a legit weird request. If anything you’d use the hand sanitizer to clean your hands after touching the buttons.

I mean, the image of some guy rubbing hand sanitizer on an elevator button (with what, his pointer finger?) is laughable, ridiculous.

:anjali:
To be fair to them, they placed a tissue box near the sanitizer, so you are supposed to apply the sanitizer on the tissue and then wipe the button.

As an inner compromise, i ve been pressing the buttons using the knuckle of my finger instead of the tip :rolleye:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
JohnK
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by JohnK »

Polar Bear wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:06 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:13 pm In the building i live in, one of the neighbours placed a hand sanitizer in the elevator with a note asking people to use it to clean the elevator buttons after pressing them.
I think that is a legit weird request. If anything you’d use the hand sanitizer to clean your hands after touching the buttons.
Yes, that does make sense.
But there seems to more going on than that weird detail.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Bundokji
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by Bundokji »

JohnK wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:50 pm Greetings, Bundokji, sorry to hear about your anxiety/dukkha.
At least to some extent , it seems to be related to to your view that your are dealing with neuroses and disorders rather than reasonable requests to avoid rapid spread.
I can certainly see how holding this view would lead to dukkha (vs. seeing such policy as "reasonable measures suggested by health professionals"
You are right. I only recognize the expertise of health professionals in relation to general technical information about the pandemic (i don't assume them to be lying), i don't recognize their authority nor expertise in relation to risk assessment which is linked to a hierarchy of subjective values. The problem is, the bulk of individuals recognize their authority in both aspects, while i recognize it partially, only to the extent of technicality, and i find no reason to take their interpretations of how i should perceive the best way of dealing with the situation as authoritative.

If what is reasonable is that clear, countries would have reacted in a similar manner. Countries have little disagreement about the pandemic itself, but they have different interpretations of what is the best way of dealing with it.

I have a sister who is overly protective of her son which caused him to become neurotic according to my interpretations. I find no reason to interpret her actions as reasonable.
So, one response to that would be to (w/o aversion) just err on the side of caution.
There seems to be no agreement on the degree of caution that strikes the right balance between recognizing the current situation and at the same time functioning sanely for someone who is mortal having had the unfortunate destiny of dealing with other mortals who seem to overvalue their miserable existence which causes more misery in the process.
An such non-alignment can either be a cause of dukkha or not.
Indeed. If even alignment is a cause of dukkha, then at least non-alignment can side with virtue. Here, JIddu Krishnamurti comes to mind:
It is no measure of health to well adjusted to a profoundly sick society
Yes, a lot of stress here -- it would probably be easier to just clean the buttons.
There is an idea. If i catch the virus and infect someone who had to press the elevator buttons after me, then that would mean he/she also did not sanitize the buttons nor his hand after pressing them, so he/she cannot hold me responsible.

To remain consistent: if i catch the virus in the elevator in a similar manner, and if it leads to the sickness and death of myself or a loved one, i would not hold them responsible. I would simply consider this as an inevitable outcome of a sorry state of affairs.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
JohnK
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by JohnK »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:51 pm ...
In any case, best wishes in dealing with it all.
I live In a rural area with no elevator buttons — one less thing to deal with!
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
binocular
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by binocular »

Humans are filthy and they carry all kinds of germs, this is so by default.
The problem, and this becomes apparent in a time of crisis like this one, is that people tend to view themselves (and to some extent, each other) as if they were marble statues, completely unaffectable by germs, dirt, etc. Atta at its finest.
Moreover, they tend to believe that the universe is a kind, safe place that welcomes humans, or at least is should be such a place.
A new virus that spreads quickly and has a somewhat respectable death toll challenges both of those beliefs.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Bundokji
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:29 pm Humans are filthy and they carry all kinds of germs, this is so by default.
The problem, and this becomes apparent in a time of crisis like this one, is that people tend to view themselves (and to some extent, each other) as if they were marble statues, completely unaffectable by germs, dirt, etc. Atta at its finest.
Moreover, they tend to believe that the universe is a kind, safe place that welcomes humans, or at least is should be such a place.
A new virus that spreads quickly and has a somewhat respectable death toll challenges both of those beliefs.
:goodpost:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:51 pmThere seems to be no agreement on the degree of caution that strikes the right balance between recognizing the current situation and at the same time functioning sanely for someone who is mortal having had the unfortunate destiny of dealing with other mortals who seem to overvalue their miserable existence which causes more misery in the process.
Conceptualizing it in terms of "a reasonable degree of caution" is where things go wrong to begin with. It's not about what that "reasonable degree of caution" is proposed to be. It's thinking that there is such a thing as "a reasonable degree of caution" to begin with that sets off the problem.
When trying to find "a reasonable degree of caution", one is bargaining with the unknown, and that can never go well.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Bundokji
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:07 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:51 pmThere seems to be no agreement on the degree of caution that strikes the right balance between recognizing the current situation and at the same time functioning sanely for someone who is mortal having had the unfortunate destiny of dealing with other mortals who seem to overvalue their miserable existence which causes more misery in the process.
Conceptualizing it in terms of "a reasonable degree of caution" is where things go wrong to begin with. It's not about what that "reasonable degree of caution" is proposed to be. It's thinking that there is such a thing as "a reasonable degree of caution" to begin with that sets off the problem.
When trying to find "a reasonable degree of caution", one is bargaining with the unknown, and that can never go well.
True. And yet, negotiating what is reasonable in certain contexts is the measure of worldly sanity.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Laurens
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by Laurens »

I am reminded of a talk Ajahn Sumedho gave (I can't remember if it was in an audio Dhamma talk on YouTube, or in one of his books, sorry) he talks about how he would find himself in situations where his thoughts would start to weave the story I can't stand this! But then he arrived at the realisation that every time he thought I can't stand this he was, in actual fact, standing it. Often it's the stories that we tell ourselves about the situation that create problems.

That is not to say that your situation is not inherently difficult, or to say that you can suddenly tell yourself a new story to make yourself feel excellent. But as things stand you are getting through it and that counts for something. Life is difficult at times, and its very difficult for a lot of people right now. But you have the resilience to get through it, this is not going to last forever.

I can't claim that my problems right now are in anyway comparable to yours because they aren't, but one thing that I do find very useful on a daily basis is to look on my day with gratitude. I think a lot of people are naturally inclined to carry around negatives for a lot longer than they carry around positives. For instance if someone says something very kind to me, I will feel good about it for a few moments, then its gone. If someone says something negative, even minutely negative, I carry it with me for days at a time often. I try to balance those scales by writing down things that I am grateful for each day. For instance in this situation I am grateful that my friends and family are at this moment safe and healthy, I am grateful that I am able to meditate for longer each day, and so on. If you struggle to think of things to feel grateful for, think of how things could be dramatically worse and this will inspire gratitude. Things could always be dramatically worse. If I feel particularly bad I will go back through my journal and read the things I am grateful for, this helps to counteract the melodramatic stories we often tell ourselves that things are absolutely terrible in every conceivable way.

The important thing is that you are standing it, and it's gonna pass. The bad feelings will pass too, there will also be moments when they pass away even during all this. You can do this, where there is suffering there is Dhamma, and a chance to grow. Sending you my best wishes

Laurens
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
SarathW
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Re: Lockdown Stress

Post by SarathW »

I think lockdown stress will kill more people than the virus.
- Obesity
- Heart problems
- Domestic violence
- Depression
- Suicide
- not being able to get back to work again.
- become lazy.
name a few.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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