Mindfulness can make you selfish

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Agnikan
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Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by Agnikan »

”Mindfulness can make you selfish," says Michael Poulin, PhD, an associate professor of psychology in the UB College of Arts and Sciences and the paper’s lead author. "It's a qualified fact, but it's also accurate.

"Mindfulness increased prosocial actions for people who tend to view themselves as more interdependent. However, for people who tend to view themselves as more independent, mindfulness actually decreased prosocial behavior."
...
There are also cultural differences layered on top of these perspectives. People in Western nations most often think of themselves as independent, whereas people in East Asian countries more often think of themselves as interdependent. Mindfulness practices originated in East Asian countries, and Poulin speculates that mindfulness may be more clearly prosocial in those contexts. Practicing mindfulness in Western countries removes that context.
Thus, the importance of paṭiccasamuppāda along with ānāpānasati and mettā bhāvanā.

Not sure about the “East Asian” origin of mindfulness practices, though.
SarathW
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by SarathW »

What Buddha taught was the Samma (right) Sati (mindfulness)
Many in the West drop the "Right" and practice mindfulness only,
Buddha rejected that sort of mindfulness.
If mindfulness is not in line with Noble Eightfold Path and Satipathana it produce unwanted results.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Kim OHara
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by Kim OHara »

Agnikan wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:18 am
”Mindfulness can make you selfish," says Michael Poulin, PhD, an associate professor of psychology in the UB College of Arts and Sciences and the paper’s lead author. "It's a qualified fact, but it's also accurate.

"Mindfulness increased prosocial actions for people who tend to view themselves as more interdependent. However, for people who tend to view themselves as more independent, mindfulness actually decreased prosocial behavior."
...
There are also cultural differences layered on top of these perspectives. People in Western nations most often think of themselves as independent, whereas people in East Asian countries more often think of themselves as interdependent. Mindfulness practices originated in East Asian countries, and Poulin speculates that mindfulness may be more clearly prosocial in those contexts. Practicing mindfulness in Western countries removes that context.
Thus, the importance of paṭiccasamuppāda along with ānāpānasati and mettā bhāvanā.

Not sure about the “East Asian” origin of mindfulness practices, though.
The sentences I made bold looks all right to me if we just leave out the "East". A quick look suggests that Kabat-Zinn's primary teacher was TNH, while Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg and Jack Kornfield (IMS) have invited teachers from all traditions to their centre.
But I think Poulin may be right. :thinking:
I think Sarath is, too. Mindfulness should include our place in the world and our responsibility for it.

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mikenz66
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by mikenz66 »

Since Buddhism vanished in India (often now referred to as "South Asia") long ago, East Asia isn't such a bad description of the area where it is actually practised. Perhaps "East and South-East Asia" might be more accurate, but it's a bit of a mouthful...

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Bundokji
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by Bundokji »

I am not sure if mindfulness is a good explanation. In western nations, independence or individualism has more to do with central governments taking over some of the responsibilities that used to belong to other institutions such as families, churches, neighbors and friends. This also does not necessarily make citizens of western nations more selfish due to mindfulness practices, but the kind of activism they engage in seems to complement the social structure where they live, that is, less focus on charity and more focus on identity, politics or other legal issues.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by Kim OHara »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:21 am In western nations, independence or individualism has more to do with central governments taking over some of the responsibilities that used to belong to other institutions such as families, churches, neighbors and friends.
In my experience, this has been the other way around. As community structures (including church communities) have broken down over the last 50 years, governments (especially through schools) have had to fill the gaps.
The result by now is the same, of course. We see primary schools having to teach children life skills their parents should have taught them, etc.
...but the kind of activism they engage in seems to complement the social structure where they live, that is, less focus on charity and more focus on identity, politics or other legal issues.
This is correct, I think.
This also does not necessarily make citizens of western nations more selfish due to mindfulness practices,
No, but it means that a Westerner taking up "mindfulness" overlays it on a individualist habit, so that it is more likely to be expressed as self-improvement and less likely to flow over into their (weak) sense of community.

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Bundokji
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by Bundokji »

Kim OHara wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:11 pm In my experience, this has been the other way around. As community structures (including church communities) have broken down over the last 50 years, governments (especially through schools) have had to fill the gaps.
The breaking down in my view goes back to what became known as the western version of enlightenment, which gradually decoupled governance from personal beliefs. Technology came to accelerate the role of central governments as a main reference point between citizens. This still allowed for different versions of charity at the local community level especially amongst migrants and minorities.
The result by now is the same, of course. We see primary schools having to teach children life skills their parents should have taught them, etc.
Probably in a way that maintains reliance and faith on central governments/authorities as the main reference between people. Western social activism is not sparing educational institutions especially on how to perceive gender and environment ...etc. Under this state of affairs, most problems are presented as primarily legal problems.
No, but it means that a Westerner taking up "mindfulness" overlays it on a individualist habit, so that it is more likely to be expressed as self-improvement and less likely to flow over into their (weak) sense of community.
This seems to be based on the same bias in the paper that is being shared, as if we are intrinsically more interdependent than independent, or that individual habits are necessarily of less value than community habits. In the western context, what is perceived as individualist habits are a reflection of general trust in central governments to do their job, and where dana is replaced by taxes.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
bpallister
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by bpallister »

I disagree. the suffering is in the mind and we need to focus our attention there. when we can relieve our own suffering, it also creates good karma which we take into the world with us. I do agree that there is a lot of selfishness in the US (and probably other Western nations) and that there isn't much sense of community any more. This has really been exacerbated by Covid too.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by Spiny Norman »

Satipatthana practice is quite inward-looking, so if practiced in isolation it could lead to a degree of self-absorption.
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Jack19990101
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by Jack19990101 »

Regardless, the path demands reduced action to both others and self.
Reduced action to others, it can be viewed as selfish.
Reduced action to self, it can be viewed as loss of motivation.

But it is gonna happen. If we have clarity, we would not mind being called selfish, good for nothing.
It is a value system shift. We start to value purity over merit of actions.
befriend
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by befriend »

I hope in the future more western or American lay Buddhists will practice generosity as it is alobha a form of non greed that brings a bright citta. In the east they are blessed to have the ability to feed monastics so readily. I don't know why good bodily conduct like volunteering is so absent from western Buddhism its a very valuable part of the practice.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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bodom
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by bodom »

It can if taken out of the proper context in which it was taught in the suttas. The Buddha taught that mindfulness is to be practiced with patience, harmlessness, loving kindness and sympathy:
SN 47.19. Sedaka

On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling among the Sumbhas, where there was a town of the Sumbhas named Sedaka. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus:

“Bhikkhus, once in the past an acrobat set up his bamboo pole and addressed his apprentice Medakathalika thus: ‘Come, dear Medakathalika, climb the bamboo pole and stand on my shoulders.’ Having replied, ‘Yes, teacher,’ the apprentice Medakathalika climbed up the bamboo pole and stood on the teacher’s shoulders. The acrobat then said to the apprentice Medakathalika: ‘You protect me, dear Medakathalika, and I’ll protect you. Thus guarded by one another, protected by one another, we’ll display our skills, collect our fee, and get down safely from the bamboo pole.’ When this was said, the apprentice Medakathalika replied: ‘That’s not the way to do it, teacher. You protect yourself, teacher, and I’ll protect myself. Thus, each self-guarded and self-protected, we’ll display our skills, collect our fee, and get down safely from the bamboo pole.’

“That’s the method there,” the Blessed One said. “It’s just as the apprentice Medakathalika said to the teacher. ‘I will protect myself,’ bhikkhus: thus should the establishments of mindfulness be practised. ‘I will protect others,’ bhikkhus: thus should the establishments of mindfulness be practised. Protecting oneself, bhikkhus, one protects others; protecting others, one protects oneself.

“And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

“And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, lovingkindness, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

“‘I will protect myself,’ bhikkhus: thus should the establishments of mindfulness be practised. ‘I will protect others,’ bhikkhus: thus should the establishments of mindfulness be practised. Protecting oneself, bhikkhus, one protects others; protecting others, one protects oneself.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.19/en/bod ... ript=latin

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
BrokenBones
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by BrokenBones »

Agnikan wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:18 am
”Mindfulness can make you selfish," says Michael Poulin, PhD, an associate professor of psychology in the UB College of Arts and Sciences and the paper’s lead author. "It's a qualified fact, but it's also accurate.

"Mindfulness increased prosocial actions for people who tend to view themselves as more interdependent. However, for people who tend to view themselves as more independent, mindfulness actually decreased prosocial behavior."
...
There are also cultural differences layered on top of these perspectives. People in Western nations most often think of themselves as independent, whereas people in East Asian countries more often think of themselves as interdependent. Mindfulness practices originated in East Asian countries, and Poulin speculates that mindfulness may be more clearly prosocial in those contexts. Practicing mindfulness in Western countries removes that context.
Thus, the importance of paṭiccasamuppāda along with ānāpānasati and mettā bhāvanā.

Not sure about the “East Asian” origin of mindfulness practices, though.
Sati has to be part of a whole 8 fold path... otherwise it's just playing around.

Also, sati seems to be regarded by most Buddhist's and non Buddhist's these days as 'attention' which just obscures the Buddha's teaching.

Even when the Buddha explicitly and repeatedly gives a definition for sati people seem to want to ignore it and take later works as their authority... so, quite possibly, modern mindfulness techniques may lead to selfishness... as for the rest... East v West nonsense 🙄

The Buddha's explanation of sati simply does not fit with later methods of meditation.
JohnSo
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Re: Mindfulness can make you selfish

Post by JohnSo »

I believe that (selfishness) is the consequences of not a having a proper knowledge, training or teacher.

So, for those who sense that 'selfishness' arise, please abandon at once, all that they have learned and gained from the so called teacher (Bhikkhu or not Bhikkhu).
Learn anew because that is not what the Buddha taught >2500 years ago.
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