what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

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what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

they are mostly not effective because mood is a mental phenomenon
3
9%
if used under the administration and supervision of a healthcare professional, they can be effective
8
24%
there are better therapies found outside of western medicine
3
9%
blind breaking in supposedly placebo controlled randomized trials invalidates the majority of psychotropic drug studies
2
6%
there is virtually no difference between recreational drugs and legal drugs
1
3%
these drugs treat symptoms without fixing the causes
7
21%
dhamma can't solve all your problems
3
9%
the mind is an epiphenomenon of the brain
0
No votes
the brain is an epiphenomenon of the mind
1
3%
other
5
15%
 
Total votes: 33

befriend
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by befriend »

What is psychotropic? Anti psychotics? Or weed
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Polar Bear »

I think the modern psychiatric- industrial complex, if you’ll allow me that phrasing, is basically evil. And most people have been propagandized into accepting it as a pseudo-religious authority. Enjoy the article below and do some more exploring of your own if you dare:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ss-failed/

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Inedible »

This is the sort of thing best determined for one person at a time. For that one person, it is best to start with a general medical examination in person. Environmental changes might be recommended. For some, however, once all that is ruled out the best answer is medication to bring a person back into the range of normal level disorder. Even then, approaches based on mindfulness and meditation can cause side effects, making anxiety and depression worse.
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by salayatananirodha »

Crazy cloud wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:02 pm
sphairos wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:07 pm
salayatananirodha wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:00 am
Psychological diseases are treated by psychological measures : psychotherapy, psychiatry, psychoactive drugs.

It is not a philosophical question, it's medical.
And sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they do even more harm to the patients. They hardly go to the root cause, but focuses in on symptoms and altering the chemical flow in the body.

And when I say that they sometimes get it right, I like to add my own question; right for who? The psychotherapist, the pharmacist, the patient, the politician, the law, the society, the stigma, the taboos, and so on ...

Ant disease should be treated with care and compassion, not the powers that be.

Edit: Voted 2
i think ADHD is a good example. kids are diagnosed with ADHD and put on stimulants. but thats because compulsory, day-to-day, hours-long education in arts & sciences is considered what is appropriate for everyone. never mind that kids are sort of naturally hyperactive. some kids dont care to learn what is being taught in school and wont use it in their lives that much. some would excel if they could be taught suitable to their disposition. having an attention deficit doesnt mean you have a disorder, or that somethings wrong with you. and yeah i think anxiety and depression are similar and they do not occur randomly. to me i think it is the same as painful feeling, except that it is either the body sense base or the mind sense base this is occurring in. and pain is only either cured by addressing the cause of it or it is suppressed. somehow society came to decide depression is an illness itself and that attenuating it is curing the disease? this is sort of my perspective (lost my train of thought while i was writing too)
but yeah, the materialistic views on mental health are inconsistent if you wouldnt treat other bodily diseases the same way (actually, pain management/opioid therapy does this with lots of patients). i get that there is a brain and that it can cause painful feelings but i dont think most people visit the psychiatrist and have a brain scan or labs done. they just get a tentative diagnosis and put on meds. seems really reckless
and to the point: 'dhamma can solve all your problems', the buddha did liken himself to a physician, dukkha being the disease. i dont see that he didnt mean this in every capacity
learn the true dhamma, practice rightly, and all suffering will totally be eradicated. if you view psychiatry consistent with dhamma practice you can make a case for it but if it is something different where you go to get cured of a disease independent of the buddha's framework (4NT & 8fp) of suffering then i think that is problematic
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by salayatananirodha »

befriend wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:25 pm What is psychotropic? Anti psychotics? Or weed
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16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by salayatananirodha »

Inedible wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:05 pm This is the sort of thing best determined for one person at a time. For that one person, it is best to start with a general medical examination in person. Environmental changes might be recommended. For some, however, once all that is ruled out the best answer is medication to bring a person back into the range of normal level disorder. Even then, approaches based on mindfulness and meditation can cause side effects, making anxiety and depression worse.
worldly beings are insane tho
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Inedible »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:50 am worldly beings are insane tho
There are different degrees of crazy. Even more crazy people can have good days. The point is that most of the books I read suggest that people get help getting to regular crazy before starting with the self-help. Sometimes it means medication if your psychiatrist says so. Always use your own judgment and get the facts on your own. Your doctor should be a partner, not your boss.
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by befriend »

I have to take these medicines or else I would be in a hell on earth.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by sphairos »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:45 am
Crazy cloud wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:02 pm
sphairos wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:07 pm

Psychological diseases are treated by psychological measures : psychotherapy, psychiatry, psychoactive drugs.

It is not a philosophical question, it's medical.
And sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they do even more harm to the patients. They hardly go to the root cause, but focuses in on symptoms and altering the chemical flow in the body.

And when I say that they sometimes get it right, I like to add my own question; right for who? The psychotherapist, the pharmacist, the patient, the politician, the law, the society, the stigma, the taboos, and so on ...

Ant disease should be treated with care and compassion, not the powers that be.

Edit: Voted 2
i think ADHD is a good example.
ADHD is a very suspicious and a very new diagnosis. It is very much prone to subjectivity.

Clinical depression is a well-known disease with very clear criteria, which is successfully treated by relevant measures.
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:58 am i may not have captured all of the opinions possible so i added 'other'

[update:] two people appear to have voted for "these drugs treat symptoms without fixing the causes" but this option originally said "there is nothing immoral or unethical about taking psychotropic medications". i edited this one because i thought it was kind of obvious
Depends on the drug. Different drugs have different levels of scientifically verified success in helping with these disorders. I would say that say it's good to take the right amount provided you're being followed by a very competent doctor and have at least two more independent medical opinions from very competent doctors that agree with your main doctor. And, very important, it's crucial to pay attention to interactions with other medications before taking them, no matter how trivial sounding the medications are.

In addition I would say it's very important to take care of the pillars of health because these can make a giant difference:
(1) Sleeping at least 7h30m per night, at the same time each night, in a totally dark and silent room.
(2) Not eating refined sugars, processed foods, lard, and fried foods.
(3) Exercising (for example calisthenics and running).
(4) Avoiding unnecessary stress, especially before sleeping.

Some extra stuff that is good for health is meditation, yoga, intermittent fasting, sauna, cold showers, the Wim Hof method, and micronutrients supplementation. Obviously, no recreational drugs and alcohol because those are like pouring fuel in the fire of those disorders.

And also having pleasant social interaction and going outside in daylight _ when possible.

As far as the Dhamma goes, I personally believe that biology has an influence on the mind and that when people have serious disorders it can derail the practice. So, for some people, the path can only be followed when they are stable enough due to the action of medications.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Crazy cloud »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:45 am
Crazy cloud wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:02 pm
sphairos wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:07 pm

Psychological diseases are treated by psychological measures : psychotherapy, psychiatry, psychoactive drugs.

It is not a philosophical question, it's medical.
And sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they do even more harm to the patients. They hardly go to the root cause, but focuses in on symptoms and altering the chemical flow in the body.

And when I say that they sometimes get it right, I like to add my own question; right for who? The psychotherapist, the pharmacist, the patient, the politician, the law, the society, the stigma, the taboos, and so on ...

Ant disease should be treated with care and compassion, not the powers that be.

Edit: Voted 2
i think ADHD is a good example. kids are diagnosed with ADHD and put on stimulants. but thats because compulsory, day-to-day, hours-long education in arts & sciences is considered what is appropriate for everyone. never mind that kids are sort of naturally hyperactive. some kids dont care to learn what is being taught in school and wont use it in their lives that much. some would excel if they could be taught suitable to their disposition. having an attention deficit doesnt mean you have a disorder, or that somethings wrong with you. and yeah i think anxiety and depression are similar and they do not occur randomly.
If I were a kid today, I would be one that would easily be subject to some mind-controlling means. And how can a kid stay sane in this society, when its core is profoundly sick. I don't fear any of those so-called ADHD kids, but really fear those kids that adapt to the system and becomes successes: We find them later in life as our bosses, politicians, police, and business sharks.
The big lie is that all is caused by some chemical imbalance, but the fact is that the only imbalance happening is when the patient is given legal drugs, and are told that this is in your best interest.

And the same thing goes with depressions, where traumas in early childhood lay the foundation for later diseases, and then trying to cope in this profoundly sick society makes people become depressed and anxious into adulthood and ageing.

And the specialist/doctors and so on doesn't offer you anything else but trying to teach you how to have a better daydream, keep on being a mindless consumer, go to work and pay the taxes, just like a common slave.

Buddha offered something much better. He said: Come and see for yourself and don't believe anybody, - not even your own mind. Just, come and see, and then you can find wisdom and sanity. No one else can do it for you.

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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by seeker242 »

Crazy cloud wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:10 pm
seeker242 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:44 am
Crazy cloud wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:02 pm They hardly go to the root cause, but focuses in on symptoms and altering the chemical flow in the body.
And when the root cause is biological, altering the biology is entirely appropriate. :smile:
If there is one who has total knowledge of the flow, then yes, but since there is no one that has it, no one should try controlling it.

The root cause is not just biological, it is psycho/bio/cultural. That's a holistic take on this mess.

Buddhas teaching is the best way to control it, and that means to do something with the controller.
No amount of the Buddha's teaching is going to stop my schizophrenic brother from hearing voices that aren't there. The one and only thing that can do that is medication. Without this medication, he would not even be capable of practicing any of the Buddha's teaching to begin with.
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Crazy cloud »

seeker242 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:03 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:10 pm
seeker242 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:44 am

And when the root cause is biological, altering the biology is entirely appropriate. :smile:
If there is one who has total knowledge of the flow, then yes, but since there is no one that has it, no one should try controlling it.

The root cause is not just biological, it is psycho/bio/cultural. That's a holistic take on this mess.

Buddhas teaching is the best way to control it, and that means to do something with the controller.
No amount of the Buddha's teaching is going to stop my schizophrenic brother from hearing voices that aren't there. The one and only thing that can do that is medication. Without this medication, he would not even be capable of practicing any of the Buddha's teaching to begin with.
I don't know anything else but consciousness, and that I despite a couple of heavy diagnosis, learned to cope with it after I trusted awareness completely. And without knowledge and experience with Buddhas teachings, I would be totally lost, or dead by now.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by seeker242 »

Crazy cloud wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:48 pm learned to cope with it after I trusted awareness completely.
I'm glad it helped :) But, it's virtually impossible to trust your awareness when your awareness tell you the ceiling fan is talking to you.
And without knowledge and experience with Buddhas teachings, I would be totally lost, or dead by now.
What I know is that without the medication, my brother would be lost or dead by now. Or, too busy literally talking to ceiling fans and thinking they are actually talking back to him...And sometimes people think I'm just joking when I say things like that, but I'm not...

Can't practice Buddhism when you are too busy talking to ceiling fans. Sometimes, Buddhism is just not good enough, especially so when your brain circuits don't operate properly.
Buddhas teaching is the best way to control it
That may be the case for you but it's certainly not the case for everyone. Although, to think of it in term of either/or, as if somehow medication and Buddhism are somehow mutually exclusive, is a misguided idea. For many people, taking the medication is the very thing that allows them to learn and practice Buddhism to begin with. Without which they would be unable to do so, especially so when brain circuits are not operating properly, which is a biological malfunction of the brain. The Buddha's teaching is not the best way to deal with actual brain damage. Just like it's not the best way to deal with cancer or heart disease.
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Re: what are your thoughts on taking psychotropic medications for mood disorders?

Post by Crazy cloud »

seeker242 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:52 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:48 pm learned to cope with it after I trusted awareness completely.
I'm glad it helped :) But, it's virtually impossible to trust your awareness when your awareness tell you the ceiling fan is talking to you.
And without knowledge and experience with Buddhas teachings, I would be totally lost, or dead by now.
What I know is that without the medication, my brother would be lost or dead by now. Or, too busy literally talking to ceiling fans and thinking they are actually talking back to him...And sometimes people think I'm just joking when I say things like that, but I'm not...

Can't practice Buddhism when you are too busy talking to ceiling fans. Sometimes, Buddhism is just not good enough, especially so when your brain circuits don't operate properly.
Buddhas teaching is the best way to control it
That may be the case for you but it's certainly not the case for everyone. Although, to think of it in term of either/or, as if somehow medication and Buddhism are somehow mutually exclusive, is a misguided idea. For many people, taking the medication is the very thing that allows them to learn and practice Buddhism to begin with. Without which they would be unable to do so, especially so when brain circuits are not operating properly, which is a biological malfunction of the brain. The Buddha's teaching is not the best way to deal with actual brain damage. Just like it's not the best way to deal with cancer or heart disease.
Without elaborating on the specifics, I did much more than just talking to ceiling fans ... And I was put on some mind-controlling drugs that contained the "madness" into a smaller space of being. But that was even worse because now I was trapped in a confined space where there was no space for reflecting and seeing what was going on, I had become the going on, completely. I tried this hellish state for almost a year, - a year where I tried to gather as much knowledge about these symptoms and the way it was treated by the powers that be. And to make the story short, concluding that this is just wrong, and based on a lack of knowing what consciousness really is, so I quit all drugs and went back to basic practice.
So, now I'm out of it, and the same powers that be that mishandled me are saying that they can't do anything for me, other than making it worse. So, they leave me alone, and that's fine. And in the meantime, I look into these new interesting treatments with psychedelic-assisted psychotherapies and developments around the endocannabinoid system.

If they knew more about the realities around talking to ceiling fans, and not judge it as madness and create hysteria, much more could be done to cure people, in my opinion.

Maybe it's not for all to do the practice, but I would say that to do anything at all, one must have access to the whole of one's consciousness, to see things clearly, and not clouded with this or that drug.

You talk about the brain, but how do you know that one needs a perfect brain if the brain is in consciousness? I have never experienced any kind of matter outside consciousness, have you?
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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