Don't wear running shoes?

A place to discuss health and fitness, healthy diets. A fit body makes for a fit mind.
User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by Annapurna »

alan wrote:If your feet are perfect and have high arches, if your knees are perfectly aligned, and if the muscles in your lower skeletal structure are perfectly balanced, and you are totally flexible, then run without shoes. In a totally flat environment. Don't blame me when you are injured.

The answer, of course, is I don't know you. Maybe you are the one in a million type who can run without shoes.
Can't recommend it, though.
I'm the one in a million then.

I always walk barefoot, run barefoot, since my childhood. Or in minimal sandals.

Of course only in the summer.

Flip flops mostly.
User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by Annapurna »

PS: I don't jog. I'm just a lot on my legs most of the day anyway, so why would I do more.

In my free time it's feet up.
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by lojong1 »

alan wrote:It is a very poor decision for most of us.
Again, why?
alan wrote:If your feet are perfect and have high arches, if your knees are perfectly aligned, and if the muscles in your lower skeletal structure are perfectly balanced, and you are totally flexible, then run without shoes.
My skeleton and muscles are not perfect, I'm normal that way. I want to know why it is a poor decision for 99% of runners to run barefoot if they are structurally imperfect.
alan wrote:I don't see any benefit to shoeless running. I see many drawbacks.
You said that already, now what are the drawbacks, not just for you, but for virtually everyone else?
alan wrote:Much better [to sprint] with good shoes.

Again, why?
Why is barefoot worse? Where's the proof, the studies, the logic, the online anecdotes, the personal observations, anything other than 'because I said so'? I'm not asking you to take off your shoes; I'm not trying to convince you that barefoot is better. I'm just asking for an explanation of the statement: "It is a very poor decision for most of us."
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by Sanghamitta »

There are other considerations in addition to what to wear or not wear on your feet. Anyone interested in jogging might be advised to talk to their local orthopaedic consultant.
I was travelling to a meeting with a colleague who is one such when we passed a group of joggers in their twenties. " See you in about about 15 years " said my colleague to himself ...when I looked quizzical he said that all orthopaeds are seeing increasing numbers of people in their forties who have been jogging on a regular basis for a decade or more and who " have tremendous cardiac and pulmonary health but wrecked knees , hips, and ankles, and advanced osteoarthritis ". "They have", he added "the joints of sixty year olds ".
I pass this on without comment.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by beeblebrox »

Sanghamitta wrote:all orthopaeds are seeing increasing numbers of people in their forties who have been jogging on a regular basis for a decade or more and who " have tremendous cardiac and pulmonary health but wrecked knees , hips, and ankles, and advanced osteoarthritis ". "They have", he added "the joints of sixty year olds ".
Of course... without shoes on I think you're more sensitive to how (and where) you land, and therefore you'll run much more gingerly, and with a better technique. With the pillows on you're just pounding on the ground, running with over-extended strides, oblivious to the effects that these have on your body. By the way, for most people, their arches will strength more if they regularly walk barefoot. Of course the exceptions are flat-footed and high arched... those are medical conditions.

I heard that flip-flops aren't good for feet... sandals (or barefooted) are better.
User avatar
Phra Chuntawongso
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 11:05 am
Location: Wat SriBoenRuang,Fang,Chiang Mai
Contact:

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by Phra Chuntawongso »

beeblebrox wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:all orthopaeds are seeing increasing numbers of people in their forties who have been jogging on a regular basis for a decade or more and who " have tremendous cardiac and pulmonary health but wrecked knees , hips, and ankles, and advanced osteoarthritis ". "They have", he added "the joints of sixty year olds ".
Of course... without shoes on I think you're more sensitive to how (and where) you land, and therefore you'll run much more gingerly, and with a better technique. With the pillows on you're just pounding on the ground, running with over-extended strides, oblivious to the effects that these have on your body. By the way, for most people, their arches will strength more if they regularly walk barefoot. Of course the exceptions are flat-footed and high arched... those are medical conditions.

I heard that flip-flops aren't good for feet... sandals (or barefooted) are better.
My feet :heart: flip flops
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by lojong1 »

"Michael Warburton's 2001 review of barefoot running in the journal Sports Science concluded that
Running barefoot is associated with a substantially lower prevalence of acute injuries of the ankle and chronic injuries of the lower leg in developing countries, but well-designed studies of the effects of barefoot and shod running on injury are lacking. Laboratory studies show that the energy cost of running is reduced by about 4% when the feet are not shod. In spite of these apparent benefits, barefoot running is rare in competition, and there are no published controlled trials of the effects of running barefoot on simulated or real competitive performance.
This study reviews much of the scientific literature that connects shod running to both acute injuries, such as ankle sprains, and chronic injuries, such as plantar fasciitis, Achilles tendinitis, shin splints, etc.
In an article entitled "Is your prescription of distance running shoes evidence based?" in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, Craig Richards et al. determined that there is no evidence to support wearing "distance running shoes featuring elevated cushioned heels and pronation control systems tailored to the individual’s foot type." Richards found no studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals that showed that running shoes either reduce injury rates or improve performance. In fact, Richards issued this challenge to running shoe manufacturers: "Is any running-shoe company prepared to claim that wearing their distance running shoes will decrease your risk of suffering musculoskeletal running injuries? Is any shoe manufacturer prepared to claim that wearing their running shoes will improve your distance running performance? If you are prepared to make these claims, where is your peer-reviewed data to back it up?"
wiki
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by lojong1 »

July 2010 Runaddicts.net: Barefoot Running Pros and Cons
"Dr. Lesley Wolff who is a foot and ankle surgeon, a marathon runners coach, educated in biomechanics and the director of the San Francisco Bay Area Podiatry Group is completely against barefoot running. On top of that, he has been running in shoes for 35 years."

The barefoot benefits I've experienced are likely imagined; even Dr. Lesley Wolff thinks running barefoot is ridiculous, a huge risk. Is he claiming all the studies are wrong, 'because he says so'?
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by Kim OHara »

lojong1 wrote:July 2010 Runaddicts.net: Barefoot Running Pros and Cons
"Dr. Lesley Wolff who is a foot and ankle surgeon, a marathon runners coach, educated in biomechanics and the director of the San Francisco Bay Area Podiatry Group is completely against barefoot running. On top of that, he has been running in shoes for 35 years."

The barefoot benefits I've experienced are likely imagined; even Dr. Lesley Wolff thinks running barefoot is ridiculous, a huge risk. Is he claiming all the studies are wrong, 'because he says so'?
Should that, in all honesty, be "on top of that" or "because of that"? :stirthepot:

Two issues could be worth separating:
1. Is toe-strike running better for you than heel-strike running?
My feeling is 'yes' because it stops the horrible jolt of the heel impact travelling all the way up through the knee, hip and spine at every stride.
2. Given the same running technique (i.e. toe-strike or heel-strike), is it better to run barefoot or with shoes?
My feeling is that heel-strike running is clearly worse for you barefoot than shod, because you really need that heel cushion (and even then, you get injured long-term). I'm not at all sure whether toe-strike running is worse for you barefoot or shod.
:juggling:

I think that the two issues have been conflated in much of the discussion, both from DW members and from the authorities they are quoting.

:namaste:
Kim
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by alan »

I don't advocate long distance running; in fact I think it is destructive. And "jogging" is, in my view, a waste of time.
Sprinting, on the other hand, is extremely beneficial. It requires an extreme burst of energy, which has far superior health effects when compared to steady-state exercises.
Proper technique and flexibility is essential, however. One great thing about wearing shoes is that an incorrect "strike" will be mitigated. There is also what should be obvious: we rarely run on perfect surfaces. Good shoes can make a rough surface smoother--as far as our joints are concerned.

Honestly, I can't conjure up any reason to run without shoes. It just seems nonsensical.

If anyone wants to hear more about sprinting (or stair climbing--also excellent), I'm here to help.
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by lojong1 »

Kim O'Hara wrote:My feeling is that heel-strike running is clearly worse for you barefoot than shod.
Heck ya, it feels so wrong. That's why after a couple barefoot heel strikes I stopped heel-striking altogether.
Now soles can tolerate more hot, cold and rough surfaces; feet and legs are stronger; hip flexibility increased; back alignment so much better that I can finally lie down supinely without pain; no more monthly knee troubles; save money on footwear; don't need to wear smelly wet shoes around town on rainy days; no more plantar warts that used to plague me every year; not so easy to ignore foot sensation on contact with environment; able to switch between shod and barefoot anytime for whatever reason without fearing the environment. The only "drawback" is slowing down to pay more attention to where I step.
alan wrote:Good shoes can make a rough surface smoother--as far as our joints are concerned.
I've never walked a surface that could damage my joints unless I were to step inappropriately.
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by cooran »

Well, …. My first attempt at barefoot walking over distance wasn’t too successful.

I decided to do my routine fast evening walk (6 kms) without the running shoes I usually wear (La Sportiva). I crossed the bitumen road noticing the hard uneven surface, walked along a concrete and gravel path, crossed the soccer fields feeling the lovely cool dew-wet grass, and arrived at the concrete bicycle/dog/walking path which runs alongside the forested Kedron Brook.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidcco/3907102002/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All was well up to this point. This is a 3 metre wide concrete path running alongside the Brook for about 10 kilometres – which is purpose-built for walkers, pedal wheel chairs, runners, bikers, skaters, skate-boarders, and dogs on leads. Sometimes also an illegal rider on horseback. Lots of wild ducks, bush turkeys, turtles and fish in and around the larger pools in the creek, with various sorts of parrots flying in noisy gangs overhead.Bare feet and cement are O.K. for a while, and then blisters start to form on the sole. Lots of little sharp twigs on the unswept path stick in and cling to the bare sole.

And then there are the Queensland Curse … Bindieye
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl= ... x=92&ty=83" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
After wandering into a bindieye patch and taking five minutes to escape, ’ouching’ under my breath, and getting the prickles out of my feet, I walked the last kilometre with sandals on. Still have two blisters on the soles of my feet from the concrete path, and quite a few prickle holes from the bindis.

Back to shoes?

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by Ben »

cooran wrote:Back to shoes?
Abso-diddly-LUTELY!
Chris, wot on earth were you thinking?,
Are you crazy person?? NO!

Then don't act like one!
with Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by beeblebrox »

Kim O'Hara wrote:Two issues could be worth separating:
1. Is toe-strike running better for you than heel-strike running?
My feeling is 'yes' because it stops the horrible jolt of the heel impact travelling all the way up through the knee, hip and spine at every stride.
2. Given the same running technique (i.e. toe-strike or heel-strike), is it better to run barefoot or with shoes?
My feeling is that heel-strike running is clearly worse for you barefoot than shod, because you really need that heel cushion (and even then, you get injured long-term). I'm not at all sure whether toe-strike running is worse for you barefoot or shod.
It's more like ball-to-heel running (same as barefoot walking). The toes are what keep you from rolling over, and when you're well balanced, you're light on your toes. Your foot is naturally angled to allow this to happen. Shoes disrupt this whole mechanism, and to compensate you end up running on your heels, or your toes... which are the two extremes.

There is a balance point between the ball and the heel, which is more or less centered in the arch. When you have your shoes on, you're disconnected from this. Why? Because a shoe fits to your foot (including its arch), and has a flat or rigid outer sole... which essentially turns you flat-footed. The only advantage you have over the actual flat-footed person is that this doesn't cause you any discomfort.

This is the main reason why you don't see practitioners in the martial arts or yoga wear shoes. (Getting the feel of toes would be a minor reason.) This balance point is very crucial. If you don't have any feeling of this, then your body is off-kilter. An experienced martial arts practitioner (like in Aikido, for example) is able to exploit this. When you have a pair of running shoes on, you're pretty much tilted forward. (You probably don't notice because you've become acclimated to it.)

To see this balance point, just stand on a flat ground, don't lock your knees, and then lift your toes. Shift a little bit till the weight are evenly distributed on the ball and the heel. This is your balance point. Ideally you would be balanced on this point all the time, anytime you're on a flat ground. You see the "horse stance" in martial arts... that is to develop your own connection to this point.

Cooran, 6km is pretty long for a first-time barefooted walk. :tongue: Just take it easy.
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Don't wear running shoes?

Post by lojong1 »

cooran wrote:Well, …. My first attempt at barefoot walking over distance wasn’t too successful. I decided to do my routine fast evening walk (6 kms) without the running shoes I usually wear.
Good grief 6 kms your first time no shat that'll be unnecessarily painful and blistery. How are the your calfs feeling? Slow down eager beaver!
Post Reply