What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DooDoot
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm Above caste discrimination (Vimuttimagga) indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other influences (if any) in Visuddhimagga
The above post might indicate more influence from Cultural Marxism over the other influences. The suttas do contain suttas where taking alms from certain people is admonished, such as prostitutes & squealing girly pandaka, as follows:
“Mendicants, even if a monk is of impeccable character, he might be suspected and distrusted as a ‘bad monk’ for five reasons. What five?

It’s when a monk frequently collects alms from prostitutes, widows, voluptuous girls, eunuchs, or nuns.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.102/en/sujato
:alien:
Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm
Anyway worth considering more observations like below, or more, if you have any ...
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:11 pm vimutimagga easy to follow but visudhimagga some points are experimentally proven in my life..
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:48 pm Comparatively, Vissudhimagga is more beneficial
SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:11 pm Visuddhimagga is intellectually more mature, better structured and more consistent
The above appears to be declaring the above posters are stream-enterers or better.
Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:56 pm Yes, but there are no any such wrong passages can be found in Visuddhimagga.
Obviously, the above view is not universally held in Buddhism.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

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Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:49 pm One of its arguments being wrong doesn’t invalidate all of its other arguments.
Yes, but there are no any such wrong passages can be found in Visuddhimagga.

The availability of direct Adhamma in a certain book suggest that the author's understanding of Dhamma is wrong.
(At least not up to the level of teaching meditaion).


Isn't it?

(Nevertheless the author might possess other good aspects of Dhamma)
I remember reading in the Expositor that Pali is the mother language of all languages. That when an infant doesn’t hear any other language it will naturally know Pali. All other languages are degenerate forms then of Pali. This is a distinctly Vedic understanding of language, only framed in terms of Pali rather than Sanskrit. This is clearly a case of “hindu influence” on the commentaries. Shall we now reject all of them?
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Eko Care
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:24 pm I remember reading in the Expositor that Pali is the mother language of all languages. That when an infant doesn’t hear any other language it will naturally know Pali. All other languages are degenerate forms then of Pali. This is a distinctly Vedic understanding of language, only framed in terms of Pali rather than Sanskrit. This is clearly a case of “hindu influence” on the commentaries. Shall we now reject all of them?
Commentary is not considered to be compiled by a single author.
Even the commentary says it should be believed only comparing with Suttas.

(The root languge controversy is not about a considerable Dhamma fact which affects the practice whether it is true or not.)
Last edited by Eko Care on Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Ceisiwr »

“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:24 pm I remember reading in the Expositor that Pali is the mother language of all languages. That when an infant doesn’t hear any other language it will naturally know Pali. All other languages are degenerate forms then of Pali. This is a distinctly Vedic understanding of language, only framed in terms of Pali rather than Sanskrit. This is clearly a case of “hindu influence” on the commentaries. Shall we now reject all of them?
Commentary is not considered to be compiled by a single author.
As far as I’m aware Buddhaghosa is considered to be the author of the Atthasālinī. Regardless, my original point still stands.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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robertk
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by robertk »

just a note that the Vimuttimagga is not a orthodox Theravada text - it may have been composed by the Abhayagiri School.

https://dhamma.discoursehosting.net/t/v ... ing-pts/43
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

See also this old topic on the Vimuttimagga. A former Dhamma Wheel member who I regard as an arya, spoke highly of it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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DooDoot
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

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SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:27 pm What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
This topic may be better served if the table of contents of both commentaries was posted, to serve as a basis for comparison.

Lazy topics like this generally produce superficial results. It appears unlikely none of the posters here with a strong opinions have actually read all of these two very large commentaries.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Eko Care
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote:
A former Dhamma Wheel member who I regard as an arya, spoke highly of it.
Any one who have common sense about modern people's arya titles,
may quickly judge the book, seeing the above comment.
Do you think you know better than the ancient Sangha ?
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:58 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
A former Dhamma Wheel member who I regard as an arya, spoke highly of it.
Any one who have common sense about modern people's arya titles,
may quickly judge the book, seeing the above comment.
Who says they even know I regard them in such a way? Who says this person has any such "title"? :shrug:

I commented to indicate I've heard a "good report" of it, despite not being a Theravada treatise - not as an invitation to petty sectarian quarreling.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Eko Care
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

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It is quite obvious that the Mahāvihāra and the Abhayagiri unanimously accepted the Pāli Tipiṭaka as authoritative texts. Yet the latter further
enlarged its ambit by accepting some non-Theravāda teachings, including Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna, showing a completely different attitude from the ideological stance of the Mahāvihāra.

… The Abhayagiri fraternity was always ready to welcome new ideas, and adjusted its monastic system in accordance with time and socio-religious
needs, whereas the Mahāvihāra considered this as an unwelcome and unacceptable transformation. In other words we can say that the Abhayagiri was radical and innovative whereas the Mahāvihāra was traditional and conservative.

Vimuttimagga- skilling PTS
Mahayanized Theravada / Abhayagiri Incident / Outside influences on "Classical Theravada"
Do you think you know better than the ancient Sangha ?
classicaltheravada.wordpress.com
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:30 pm
It is quite obvious that the Mahāvihāra and the Abhayagiri unanimously accepted the Pāli Tipiṭaka as authoritative texts. Yet the latter further
enlarged its ambit by accepting some non-Theravāda teachings, including Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna, showing a completely different attitude from the ideological stance of the Mahāvihāra.

… The Abhayagiri fraternity was always ready to welcome new ideas, and adjusted its monastic system in accordance with time and socio-religious
needs, whereas the Mahāvihāra considered this as an unwelcome and unacceptable transformation. In other words we can say that the Abhayagiri was radical and innovative whereas the Mahāvihāra was traditional and conservative.

Vimuttimagga- skilling PTS
Mahayanized Theravada / Abhayagiri Incident / Outside influences on "Classical Theravada"
There isn’t much to indicate that the Vimuttimagga is from Abhayagiri.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
asahi
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by asahi »

In terms of jhana , i found the Vism decription of the meditation being diverted from the right path .
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