Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

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confusedlayman
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:45 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:08 am Buddhism is not declined.... when buddha was there, only 1500 or 3000 monks approx there i think... but now more than 50000 monks are there (dont know exact how much)

1500 yeara ago less than 1000 monestrh but now monestry is everywhere in north india himalayas and even online sangha there

Before only 1 or 2 million buddhist but now 300 plus buddhist in world
If you count the converts in Pali cannon, it will add up to more than 3000 I think. Considering the fact King Asoka was a Buddhist, there would have been more than 3000 monks in India in Buddhas times. I think the Buddhists in India increased due to the Ambedkar movement. But Ambedkar "Nava Yana' does not teach the Pali canon. He got his own version of Buddhism. Perhaps Tibetan Buddhism also now spreading. Hindus accept Buddha as the Avatar of Vishnu. So some Hindus call themselves Buddhist too. But what they follow is Hinduism not Buddhism in my view. I may be wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong.
There are 535 million Buddhists in the world.
In 535 million buddhiet, atleast 20 million will be lay householder who have right view and maybe 1st jhana also... my guess
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Dhammanando »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:08 am Buddhism is not declined.... when buddha was there, only 1500 or 3000 monks approx there i think... but now more than 50000 monks are there (dont know exact how much)

1500 yeara ago less than 1000 monestrh but now monestry is everywhere in north india himalayas and even online sangha there

Before only 1 or 2 million buddhist but now 300 plus buddhist in world
This thread is about the causes of the pre-modern near-disappearance of Buddhism from the Indian sub-continent. Its later 20th century revival is off-topic.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by confusedlayman »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:29 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:08 am Buddhism is not declined.... when buddha was there, only 1500 or 3000 monks approx there i think... but now more than 50000 monks are there (dont know exact how much)

1500 yeara ago less than 1000 monestrh but now monestry is everywhere in north india himalayas and even online sangha there

Before only 1 or 2 million buddhist but now 300 plus buddhist in world
This thread is about the causes of the pre-modern near-disappearance of Buddhism from the Indian sub-continent. Its later 20th century revival is off-topic.
Hi bhante, i think kings after ashoka gave importanxe to hindusim monks and buddist stupas are not well gaurded
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by mabw »

My 2 cents:
-the Brahmanic tradition had lots to offer the state. Treatises were composed on statecraft with rituals for the royalties etc. Buddhism had little to offer in terms of statecraft, not to the sophistication of the other tradition. This is also seen in South East Asia when Hindu Buddhist kingdoms dotted the region. The kings had brahmins in court. Burma had brahmins to conduct abhiseka on the king. check Wiki. Mahayana had something to offer the state. Consequently it had patronage in Japan, and for a time, China. To my understanding, Korean Buddhism also had to adopt a closer relationship to the state to survive.
- I've mentioned this before, but did not get much traction. Buddhism is focused on its monastics. From the text, I do not get the impression the laity were well versed. If the monastic institution is shaken, then...
- down to daily life, there is little as far as I am aware of Buddhist ceremonies to mark life events such as birth, marriage etc. When you don't have an institution for yourself, others create them for you. The thread on Buddhist marriages confirms this. When Buddhists do not enter the daily life of the laity, strong Indian cultural practices with Brahmanic elements fill the void.


Ultimately, I have no answers for this, since indeed, the point of Buddhism is to escape from samsara, which relegates the above to a minor role. But then you will have to face the inevitablity of non-Buddhist elements creeping in. This is an important conversation to have. Which is why I am appreciative of what the Mahayana movement inspired in countries outside India-art, music and other cultural elements which help connect and inspire the laity. Many here however, scoff at the very mention of Mahayana. And of course, vice versa. And so the Buddhist world lie fragmented...
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

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"Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses.” - Plato
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
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Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
mabw
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by mabw »

mabw wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:28 pm My 2 cents:
-the Brahmanic tradition had lots to offer the state. Treatises were composed on statecraft with rituals for the royalties etc. Buddhism had little to offer in terms of statecraft, not to the sophistication of the other tradition. This is also seen in South East Asia when Hindu Buddhist kingdoms dotted the region. The kings had brahmins in court. Burma had brahmins to conduct abhiseka on the king. check Wiki. Mahayana had something to offer the state. Consequently it had patronage in Japan, and for a time, China. To my understanding, Korean Buddhism also had to adopt a closer relationship to the state to survive.
- I've mentioned this before, but did not get much traction. Buddhism is focused on its monastics. From the text, I do not get the impression the laity were well versed. If the monastic institution is shaken, then...
- down to daily life, there is little as far as I am aware of Buddhist ceremonies to mark life events such as birth, marriage etc. When you don't have an institution for yourself, others create them for you. The thread on Buddhist marriages confirms this. When Buddhists do not enter the daily life of the laity, strong Indian cultural practices with Brahmanic elements fill the void.


Ultimately, I have no answers for this, since indeed, the point of Buddhism is to escape from samsara, which relegates the above to a minor role. But then you will have to face the inevitablity of non-Buddhist elements creeping in. This is an important conversation to have. Which is why I am appreciative of what the Mahayana movement inspired in countries outside India-art, music and other cultural elements which help connect and inspire the laity. Many here however, scoff at the very mention of Mahayana. And of course, vice versa. And so the Buddhist world lie fragmented...
Am interested to hear any comments on what I've brought up,
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by sphairos »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:38 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:20 pm Archaeologist Giovanni Verardi in his remarkable book "Hardships and Downfall of Buddhism in India" (2011) argues that the crucial factor was not a Muslim invasion, but the constant Hindu aggression against Buddhists.
Perhaps the Brahmana was more arrogant than the invaders. They are so strong even today and deny education and entering to worship places for low caste people.
Or perhaps Buddhist monks could not stand the challenge of Advaita Vedanta.
He presents the evidence of the regular mass-slaughtering of the Buddhists by Hindus, that continued for centuries.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

sphairos wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:25 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:38 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:20 pm Archaeologist Giovanni Verardi in his remarkable book "Hardships and Downfall of Buddhism in India" (2011) argues that the crucial factor was not a Muslim invasion, but the constant Hindu aggression against Buddhists.
Perhaps the Brahmana was more arrogant than the invaders. They are so strong even today and deny education and entering to worship places for low caste people.
Or perhaps Buddhist monks could not stand the challenge of Advaita Vedanta.
He presents the evidence of the regular mass-slaughtering of the Buddhists by Hindus, that continued for centuries.
The most recent evidence is the Hindus take the control of Buddhist worship place Buddha Gaya and not allowing Buddhist to enter there. Anagarika Dharmapala has to challenge it in the high coorts and now Buddha Gaya is controlled by both Buddhists and Hindus.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:02 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:25 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:38 pm

Perhaps the Brahmana was more arrogant than the invaders. They are so strong even today and deny education and entering to worship places for low caste people.
Or perhaps Buddhist monks could not stand the challenge of Advaita Vedanta.
He presents the evidence of the regular mass-slaughtering of the Buddhists by Hindus, that continued for centuries.
The most recent evidence is the Hindus take the control of Buddhist worship place Buddha Gaya and not allowing Buddhist to enter there. Anagarika Dharmapala has to challenge it in the high coorts and now Buddha Gaya is controlled by both Buddhists and Hindus.
During buddhas time bihar was advanced state but now bihar is extreme poverty...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

Good video about this topic.
https://video.leidenuniv.nl/media/t/1_a ... /201230153

Considering the fact none of these theories are good enough to explain Buddhism in India we should examine how Buddhism is in decline in the world even in a country like Sri Lanka. Perhaps it is easier to understand what is happening now rather than what has happened in the past.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:41 am Good video about this topic.
Disagree. I would suggest 'syncretism' ended Buddhism. If we read the Suttas, the Brahmins had no systematic doctrine of kamma & 'rebirth'. Also, if we know the Suttas, kamma & 'rebirth' is defined as a mundane dhamma, siding with attachment (upadhi; self-view). If we know the Tripitaka, the 'rebirth' doctrines evolved to become more & more literal reincarnation, such as Jataka Tales, Buddhavamsa & Apadana. This emphasis upon 'rebirth' & literal 'reincarnation' became a fully developed doctrine in Hinduism. Therefore, Buddhism, with its not-self (anatta) teaching, became illogical in relation to reincarnation; where as Hinduism, with its Atman teaching, became logical in respect to reincarnation. The current fact is most Buddhists are interested in & believe in 'rebirth'; yet, to logical people, their convoluted explanations of kamma, anatta & rebirth remain unconvincing. Only a small cult can believe in Buddhaghosa's idea of a 12-fold emptiness reborn eternally. I suggest this is how Buddhism died in India. Hinduism simply became more logical in respect to reincarnation. :smile:
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:33 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:41 am Good video about this topic.
Disagree. I would suggest 'syncretism' ended Buddhism. If we read the Suttas, the Brahmins had no systematic doctrine of kamma & 'rebirth'. Also, if we know the Suttas, kamma & 'rebirth' is defined as a mundane dhamma, siding with attachment (upadhi; self-view). If we know the Tripitaka, the 'rebirth' doctrines evolved to become more & more literal reincarnation, such as Jataka Tales, Buddhavamsa & Apadana. This emphasis upon 'rebirth' & literal 'reincarnation' became a fully developed doctrine in Hinduism. Therefore, Buddhism, with its not-self (anatta) teaching, became illogical in relation to reincarnation; where as Hinduism, with its Atman teaching, became logical in respect to reincarnation. The current fact is most Buddhists are interested in & believe in 'rebirth'; yet, to logical people, their convoluted explanations of kamma, anatta & rebirth remain unconvincing. Only a small cult can believe in Buddhaghosa's idea of a 12-fold emptiness reborn eternally. I suggest this is how Buddhism died in India. Hinduism simply became more logical in respect to reincarnation. :smile:
:goodpost:
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

Good video by Dugg's Dhamma

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Ontheway »

According to this article (link below), it is said that Buddhism did not reconcile with other religions, that's why Buddhism diminished in India. The author said Jainism was able to survive in India till present day because it was willing to be influenced by other religions and get along with one another. However, it cannot be popular due to Asceticism.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 1.ece/amp/

Could this refers to the Third Council of Arahants? After all, it was Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa Thera at that time purged many other views within Sangha and compiled Kathavathu.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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