Why do people become religious?

Organisational work, teaching, Sunday school syllabus, charitable work, outreach, sharing of resources, artwork, etc.

Why do people become religious?

1) Political power and wealth provided by the group
2
4%
2) The greed - the benefits of belong to a group
2
4%
3) Charisma of the leader
3
6%
4) Fear of unknown
4
8%
5) Curiosity
7
13%
6) Brain washed by parents
6
11%
7) Unsatisfactoriness of life
12
23%
8) Magic nature of teaching - supernormal powers
2
4%
9) Miracle of teaching
8
15%
10) Desire to be a part of a common group
7
13%
 
Total votes: 53

un8-
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by un8- »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:57 pm
Is it your view that Right View is no-view? :stirthepot:
If the purpose is to gradually let go of what is conditioned, then that is the end result. The problem is delusion and conceit causes people to believe they achieved the end while the habituation and tendencies (asavas and sankharas) still remain strong.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 pm [Mundane right view is subject to falling back. Supermundane right view is not subject to falling back. That means if rebirth is actually true, that means a person probably had mundane right view and wrong view in the infinite cycles of samsara. You can lose your mundane right view, you can't lose Supermundane right view. So all these ritualistic religious people on this forum are focusing and wasting their time arguing for something they can't even keep and is subject to loss.
The point that you seem to be missing is that you can’t get to one without the other. The supramundane view that you mention occurs at any of the 4 stages of awakening, after the prior stage of having mundane right view and perfecting virtue and sense restraint. You don’t just adopt supramundane right view. It’s the outcome of practicing for a long, long time.
“When there are words, there is the fetter of birth and death. When words do not exist, there is nirvāṇa. Those who have words have birth, death, arising and cessation; those who have no words have no birth, no death, no arising and no cessation.”

EĀ 30:1
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Coëmgenu »

It's from "Greek Buddha," no?
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:02 pm
un8- wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 pm [Mundane right view is subject to falling back. Supermundane right view is not subject to falling back. That means if rebirth is actually true, that means a person probably had mundane right view and wrong view in the infinite cycles of samsara. You can lose your mundane right view, you can't lose Supermundane right view. So all these ritualistic religious people on this forum are focusing and wasting their time arguing for something they can't even keep and is subject to loss.
The point that you seem to be missing is that you can’t get to one without the other. The supramundane view that you mention occurs at any of the 4 stages of awakening, after the prior stage of having mundane right view and perfecting virtue and sense restraint. You don’t just adopt supramundane right view. It’s the outcome of practicing for a long, long time.
I usually don't feed trolls but you're so blatantly wrong just like your previous post on akalika, which I ignored.

Overcoming the 5 Hindrances is Supermundane right view, which automatically covers the 5 precepts. One automatically handles the 5 precepts and more when they start the Supermundane path.
“I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention. Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith. Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.
The 3 misconducts is what breaks the precepts. Sati-sampajanna prevents the 3 misconducts. Sati requires having Supermundane right view, same with yoniso manasikara. In order to have yoniso manasikara you need to have Supermundane right view, it is the forerunner.

So no, you're wrong as usual, the virtue training is part of Supermundane right view, not mundane right view.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:28 pm
I usually don't feed trolls but you're so blatantly wrong just like your previous post on akalika, which I ignored.
If I recall correctly I said you might want to look into what "akālika" means. What do you understand by "akālika"?
Overcoming the 5 Hindrances is Supermundane right view, which automatically covers the 5 precepts. One automatically handles the 5 precepts and more when they start the Supermundane path...The 3 misconducts is what breaks the precepts. Sati-sampajanna prevents the 3 misconducts. Sati requires having Supermundane right view, same with yoniso manasikara. In order to have yoniso manasikara you need to have Supermundane right view, it is the forerunner.

So no, you're wrong as usual, the virtue training is part of Supermundane right view, not mundane right view.

When the suttas talk of supramundane right view they do so in terms of someone who has obtained the path. That only applies to a sotāpanna or higher.

“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, the path factor of right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path." - MN 117

So, until there is some breakthrough, until there is some measure of awakening, you have to rely upon mundane Right View. That is to say, having a view of kamma and literal rebirth.
“When there are words, there is the fetter of birth and death. When words do not exist, there is nirvāṇa. Those who have words have birth, death, arising and cessation; those who have no words have no birth, no death, no arising and no cessation.”

EĀ 30:1
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:37 pm
un8- wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:28 pm
I usually don't feed trolls but you're so blatantly wrong just like your previous post on akalika, which I ignored.
If I recall correctly I said you might want to look into what "akālika" means. What do you understand by "akālika"?
Overcoming the 5 Hindrances is Supermundane right view, which automatically covers the 5 precepts. One automatically handles the 5 precepts and more when they start the Supermundane path...The 3 misconducts is what breaks the precepts. Sati-sampajanna prevents the 3 misconducts. Sati requires having Supermundane right view, same with yoniso manasikara. In order to have yoniso manasikara you need to have Supermundane right view, it is the forerunner.

So no, you're wrong as usual, the virtue training is part of Supermundane right view, not mundane right view.

When the suttas talk of supramundane right view they do so in terms of someone who has obtained the path. That only applies to a sotāpanna or higher.

“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, the path factor of right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path." - MN 117

So, until there is some breakthrough, until there is some measure of awakening, you have to rely upon mundane Right View. That is to say, having a view of kamma and literal rebirth.
Did you not notice that it also says developing? Did you not notice that it only says Supermundane view is only a factor of the path, and not mundane right view?


Supermundane means Ariyan, that means all Ariyans are on the Supermundane path. Faith followers and Dhamma followers are Ariyan but have yet to overcome the 5 hindrances, so no, mundane right view is not the virtue training.

The noble (Ariyan) eightfold path is the Supermundane path, and right thought, speech, action and livelihood constitute the virtue training.

You spend too much time on post canonical works that you don't know the basics.

Mundane right view (rebirth) belief doesn't prevent one from breaking the precepts, however the noble (aka Supermundane) eightfold path does. Many people believe in rebirth but kill, just look at thai people. However sati-sampajanna and constantly reflecting on the 5 Hindrances prevents bad thoughts from developing further. This should be obvious to you.

You glossed over the most important part of that quote btw, which is "the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor", aka overcoming the 5 hindrances.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:10 am
Did you not notice that it also says developing? Did you not notice that it only says Supermundane view is only a factor of the path, and not mundane right view?
Yes. Sotāpannas, Sakadāgāmis and Anāgāmis still have work to do. The obtaining of the path here in this sutta, which is possibly influenced by the proto-Abhidhamma, is referring to a meditative or post meditative experience. In Theravādin terms, and this is a Theravādin text, it refers to the moment of cognition of nibbāna and the simultaneous understanding of the 4 Noble Truths. That would also mean understanding dependent origination. It's not unusual then for mundane Right View, which centres around the concept of a self, to not be present there.
Supermundane means Ariyan, that means all Ariyans are on the Supermundane path. Faith followers and Dhamma followers are Ariyan but have yet to overcome the 5 hindrances, so no, mundane right view is not the virtue training.
Someone who has obtained the path has glimpsed nibbāna. For those who have not, mundane Right View is essential.
You spend too much time on post canonical works that you don't know the basics.
Whilst commentaries aren't everything they also aren't nothing.
Mundane right view (rebirth) belief doesn't prevent one from breaking the precepts,
No it doesn't.

however the noble (aka Supermundane) eightfold path does. Many people believe in rebirth but kill, just look at thai people. However sati-sampajanna and constantly reflecting on the 5 Hindrances prevents bad thoughts from developing further. This should be obvious to you.
According to some sects of Buddhism, a few in fact, you can regress from any of the 4 levels of awakening. I don't necessarily believe that myself, but it's not as open and shut as it might seem. Regardless, me agreeing that one cannot regress from their awakening level makes no difference to my argument regarding the necessity of mundane Right View from the start. The whole point of the NEFP, it seems to me, is to re-trace the path the Buddha took to awakening. Part of his pre-awakening worldview was that of being trapped in a cycle of birth and death. Personally I believe he started out with an annihilationist view, and so sought to end his existence, but either way he certainly thought that if he did not escape then he would be born into suffering again. It is this initial view that we must adopt, before there can be any obtaining of the path. Rejecting it from the start is to not even begin, it seems to me.
You glossed over the most important part of that quote btw, which is "the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor", aka overcoming the 5 hindrances.
Dhamma vicaya has a wider scope than just the hindrances. Dhamma vicaya is required for any form of insight according to Theravādin suttas and later commentarial and Abhidhamma works, being closely tied to normal reflective thinking (paṭisañcikkhati) out of which one gains insight.
“When there are words, there is the fetter of birth and death. When words do not exist, there is nirvāṇa. Those who have words have birth, death, arising and cessation; those who have no words have no birth, no death, no arising and no cessation.”

EĀ 30:1
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by un8- »

You can argue until you're blue in the face, but I'm not about to teach you the entire dhamma now because each point is connected to another.

The greatest irony though is that you're scared of rebirth in hell but you don't know how to prevent yourself from going to hell, because you don't know where to look to prevent misconduct from developing, i.e. you don't have proper attention (yoniso manasikara).

Learn the basics, then we can talk. Unfortunately, despite hearing the true dhamma so much, some people, like devadatta, will never become ariyas, at least in their lifetime. That's why it's a waste of time to argue.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:48 am You can argue until you're blue in the face, but I'm not about to teach you the entire dhamma now because each point is connected to another.

The greatest irony though is that you're scared of hell but you don't know how to prevent yourself from going to hell, because you don't know where to look to prevent misconduct from develop, i.e. you don't have proper attention (yoniso manasikara).

Learn the basics, then we can talk. Unfortunately, despite hearing the true dhamma so much, some people, like devadatta, will never become ariyas, at least in their lifetime. That's why it's a waste of time to argue.
Notice how you didn't address my points but instead discussed me again, and rather badly too since you have no idea what my practice is actually like. I'm also not asking you to "teach" me anything. You aren't someone who I would seek "teachings" from. That you consider yourself to be in a position to "teach" others says quite a lot.
“When there are words, there is the fetter of birth and death. When words do not exist, there is nirvāṇa. Those who have words have birth, death, arising and cessation; those who have no words have no birth, no death, no arising and no cessation.”

EĀ 30:1
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I should clarify in something I said above. Whilst mundane Right View isn't present in the moment of obtaining the path, that is to say the view of "I" will be reborn, understanding how clinging leads to a new existence and repeated rebirths is according to standard Theravādin doctrine.
“When there are words, there is the fetter of birth and death. When words do not exist, there is nirvāṇa. Those who have words have birth, death, arising and cessation; those who have no words have no birth, no death, no arising and no cessation.”

EĀ 30:1
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Tennok
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Tennok »

This survey miss one important cathegory...Spirital Experience.

Some people became religious, becouse of a sudden Spiritual Experience. Or Peak Experience. It can happen due to various factors. Drugs, sex, art, giving birth, near death experience. Even sports.

For example, my friend became interested in Buddhism, becouse he was a diver in the army and he experienced some strange things happening to his mind under water. They also thaught him to aim and shoot, by using breath techniques, so he learned, how the meditation works.

I ve also heard, that many European Theravada Monks, had previous experiences with psychodelics, as lay persons.

Hell, I know a guy, who ate his first mashrooms, while being totally drunk. He started a party as a loud, nihilistic and self destructive punk rocker, and woke up as a shy, religious person, with entirely different vision of life. So he cut off his iroques, left his band "The Bastards" , stopped drinking, and visited the nearest Sangha.
Drugs are bad :tongue: .

Unsatisfactory nature of life, resulting in Samvega, is also a common starting point. Perhaps those points come together for some folks.
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Bundokji »

In my view, its causality. The religious experience is always referred to in terms of systematic teachings by religious figures, but there is more to it in my opinion. Atheism, hedonism and scientism, for example, are religions even when they are not categorized as such.

In terms of the safe bet analogy, traditional religions can be a safer bit than worldly views. Carl Jung once said something in the lines of: if you remove god, something more sinister will come to replace him. I think his analysis, to a large extent, is true.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Ontheway
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ontheway »

Before I encounter Buddhism, I felt lost, helpless, without direction & purpose in my life.

After I encountered Buddhism, my life changed and it gives me hopes, truth, a clear direction and a purpose to live on.
"Vibhajjavādo kho ahamettha, māṇava; nāhamettha ekaṁsavādo." - Buddha (Subha Sutta MN99)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:30 pm Before I encounter Buddhism, I felt lost, helpless, without direction & purpose in my life.

After I encountered Buddhism, my life changed and it gives me hopes, truth, a clear direction and a purpose to live on.
That's good to hear.
“When there are words, there is the fetter of birth and death. When words do not exist, there is nirvāṇa. Those who have words have birth, death, arising and cessation; those who have no words have no birth, no death, no arising and no cessation.”

EĀ 30:1
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cappuccino
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:35 am Personally I believe he started out with an annihilationist view, and so sought to end his existence
no self is the teaching of Advaita


Samkhya is similar to Advaita


however the Buddha was skeptical
Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome.
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