Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

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SarathW
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Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

Why Buddhism's Decline in India?
Interesting video on this subject.
Contrary to the popular belief that Islam is responsible for the disappearance of Buddhism from India, It seems Buddhist monks are themselves to be blamed for this.

This idea resonates with what Buddha said in my opinion.
Buddhism is now slowly disappearing in Sri Lanka as well. Buddhist monks are still put the blame on other religions for their drawbacks instead of taking the responsibility for themselves.

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DooDoot
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by DooDoot »

IMO Buddhism decline because it does not remain true to its original doctrine thus not keeping Buddhism small, beautiful & unwavering.

I read on the internet singhalese who love money and believe western people are financially wealthy due to good past life karma.

Such believers who love money and materialism are easy converts for other religions.

If it was good karma that made lots of money then it’s was probably also good karma these people were reborn Christian therefore better to be Christian than Buddhist
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:43 am IMO Buddhism decline because it does not remain true to its original doctrine thus not keeping Buddhism small, beautiful & unwavering.

I read on the internet singhalese who love money and believe western people are financially wealthy due to good past life karma.

Such believers who love money and materialism are easy converts for other religions.


If it was good karma that made lots of money then it’s was probably also good karma these people were reborn Christian therefore better to be Christian than Buddhist
The highlighted seem to contradict each other. However, you can start a new thread on this so we can discuss it.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Coëmgenu »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:32 amContrary to the popular belief that Islam is responsible for the disappearance of Buddhism from India, It seems Buddhist monks are themselves to be blamed for this.
In my experience, "Muslims didn't put Indian Buddhists to the sword, destroy their temples, and murder their monks" is a very trendy leftist revision of history that is not accurate.

Late-stage Indian Buddhism was mostly a syncretic mix of Vajrayāna and Hinduism. This was the sort of Buddhism suppressed and destroyed by the Muslims, so maybe that's a form of consolation for members of this forum. That being said, we don't know how many Śrāvaka communities were destroyed and dispersed by the invaders.

Theravāda's traditional colonizing foe would be Christianity, not Islam like in India. See this paper:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5224709549

My phone for some reason cannot actually copy addresses where PDFs are stored on the Internet. That link should lead you to a paper called "Islam in the Kālacakratantra." It will substantiate the Islamic war against Indian Buddhism from firsthand Muslim accounts as well as traditional histories of India written by the conquering Muslims.

Fleeing persecuted Buddhists on their way to Tibet and other areas of East Asia took their stories of the Muslim invasions with them and over time they turned into mythohistory. These refugees assembled the Kālacakra from their own stories and also a mix of free borrowings from Jaina, Śaiva, and Vaiśnava sources as was common in their day. They imagined a religion of world-destroying wickedness proceeding from the avatar of the demon king Ar-Raḥmān who lives in the West. His avatar Muhammed assembles an army to destroy the Dharma in an apocalyptic war against an army of gnostic warriors from what might be Shambala -- I can't remember where they come from. If I remember correctly, supposedly Maitreya will lead the battle in some way. Interesting how, in polemicizing against the Muslims, they produced what is IMO the most "Islam-like" tantra in all of Buddhism. Muslims also sometimes believe in a future apocalyptic war between the armies of Satan and God, like the so-called "Christian Zionist" movement and their strange opinion that they can bring about the Second Coming of Jesus by starting wars in the Middle East.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:32 am Why Buddhism's Decline in India?
Interesting video on this subject.
Contrary to the popular belief that Islam is responsible for the disappearance of Buddhism from India, It seems Buddhist monks are themselves to be blamed for this.
The speaker doesn't make it an either/or thing in this way. On the contrary, he acknowledges (as virtually all scholars of Indian Buddhist history do) that Islam was one factor in Buddhism's decline and disappearance. He sides, however, with those historians who see Islam as playing a minor rather than a major role in the decline.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by sphairos »

Archaeologist Giovanni Verardi in his remarkable book "Hardships and Downfall of Buddhism in India" (2011) argues that the crucial factor was not a Muslim invasion, but the constant Hindu aggression against Buddhists.
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SarathW
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

sphairos wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:20 pm Archaeologist Giovanni Verardi in his remarkable book "Hardships and Downfall of Buddhism in India" (2011) argues that the crucial factor was not a Muslim invasion, but the constant Hindu aggression against Buddhists.
Perhaps the Brahmana was more arrogant than the invaders. They are so strong even today and deny education and entering to worship places for low caste people.
Or perhaps Buddhist monks could not stand the challenge of Advaita Vedanta.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by DNS »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:38 pm Perhaps the Brahmana was more arrogant than the invaders. They are so strong even today and deny education and entering to worship places for low caste people.
Or perhaps Buddhist monks could not stand the challenge of Advaita Vedanta.
I think I read a theory somewhere that the masses in India weren't able to comprehend the Dhamma, deep in meaning and practice and so reverted to more folk religion type practices. And that made it ripe for Hinduism to capture the masses back and bring them back to Brahmanism/Hinduism.

Fortunately, Ashoka sent his missionaries out far and wide, so that Buddhism had a foothold in SE Asia and beyond. Otherwise, Buddhism could have died out right there in India.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by dharmacorps »

It sounds to me like the largest single factor was Buddhism itself degenerating in India and becoming more esoteric, occult, and similar to hinduism. Of course, Vajrayana people people believe that Buddhism "evolved" to its "perfect" form in India, and then got transported to Tibet. Yes, that does seem to be arguing that the dhamma got better after the Buddha's death. I would argue its the other direction.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

DNS wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:34 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:38 pm Perhaps the Brahmana was more arrogant than the invaders. They are so strong even today and deny education and entering to worship places for low caste people.
Or perhaps Buddhist monks could not stand the challenge of Advaita Vedanta.
I think I read a theory somewhere that the masses in India weren't able to comprehend the Dhamma, deep in meaning and practice and so reverted to more folk religion type practices. And that made it ripe for Hinduism to capture the masses back and bring them back to Brahmanism/Hinduism.

Fortunately, Ashoka sent his missionaries out far and wide, so that Buddhism had a foothold in SE Asia and beyond. Otherwise, Buddhism could have died out right there in India.
In my opinion that the Indians are a pretty intelligent race. What I see as the problem is their strong views. (say the caste system)
Sometimes the intelligence overshadowed by strong views.
Even if you take the present world, human has achieved incredible progress in material things but not many will resort to practice Buddhism. Perhaps due to the strong craving. I can see a similar issue in Sri Lanka too. I don't think any of my family members will be able to tell me what is Noble Eightfold Path. They will be struggling with the five precepts. No hopes about the eight precepts at all. :D
Many Buddist is hanging to Buddhism, not because realising the value of it but due to strong views about Buddhism so they can be hoodwinked by anyone.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

It would appear that over time the sects became so obsessed with their own branches and twigs, that they forgot the tend the root of the tree of Dhamma, from which they grew.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by BrokenBones »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:32 am Greetings,

It would appear that over time the sects became so obsessed with their own branches and twigs, that they forgot the tend the root of the tree of Dhamma, from which they grew.

Metta,
Paul. :)
What on earth could they be doing to distract themselves from the suttas?
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:32 am Greetings,

It would appear that over time the sects became so obsessed with their own branches and twigs, that they forgot the tend the root of the tree of Dhamma, from which they grew.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I think they are going back to their roots. Vedas.
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by confusedlayman »

Buddhism is not declined.... when buddha was there, only 1500 or 3000 monks approx there i think... but now more than 50000 monks are there (dont know exact how much)

1500 yeara ago less than 1000 monestrh but now monestry is everywhere in north india himalayas and even online sangha there

Before only 1 or 2 million buddhist but now 300 plus buddhist in world
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Why Buddhism's Decline in India?

Post by SarathW »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:08 am Buddhism is not declined.... when buddha was there, only 1500 or 3000 monks approx there i think... but now more than 50000 monks are there (dont know exact how much)

1500 yeara ago less than 1000 monestrh but now monestry is everywhere in north india himalayas and even online sangha there

Before only 1 or 2 million buddhist but now 300 plus buddhist in world
If you count the converts in Pali cannon, it will add up to more than 3000 I think. Considering the fact King Asoka was a Buddhist, there would have been more than 3000 monks in India in Buddhas times. I think the Buddhists in India increased due to the Ambedkar movement. But Ambedkar "Nava Yana' does not teach the Pali canon. He got his own version of Buddhism. Perhaps Tibetan Buddhism also now spreading. Hindus accept Buddha as the Avatar of Vishnu. So some Hindus call themselves Buddhist too. But what they follow is Hinduism not Buddhism in my view. I may be wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong.
There are 535 million Buddhists in the world.
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