Why do people become religious?

Organisational work, teaching, Sunday school syllabus, charitable work, outreach, sharing of resources, artwork, etc.

Why do people become religious?

1) Political power and wealth provided by the group
2
3%
2) The greed - the benefits of belong to a group
2
3%
3) Charisma of the leader
3
5%
4) Fear of unknown
4
7%
5) Curiosity
8
14%
6) Brain washed by parents
6
10%
7) Unsatisfactoriness of life
16
28%
8) Magic nature of teaching - supernormal powers
2
3%
9) Miracle of teaching
8
14%
10) Desire to be a part of a common group
7
12%
 
Total votes: 58

sphairos
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:40 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:18 pm
Belief in anything, and especially in rebirth doesn't have anything to do with the teaching of the Buddha. Buddhism is scepticism.
The Buddha taught that part of the road to abandoning all dukkha is to have faith in him, and to accept rebirth. This ain’t secularism.
No, he taught that one shouldn't have any view. Right view is no-view.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:43 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:40 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:18 pm
Belief in anything, and especially in rebirth doesn't have anything to do with the teaching of the Buddha. Buddhism is scepticism.
The Buddha taught that part of the road to abandoning all dukkha is to have faith in him, and to accept rebirth. This ain’t secularism.
No, he taught that one shouldn't have any view. Right view is no-view.
That isn’t how he taught the vast majority of people, over and over again. For the likes of you and me it’s a gradual process. One can’t get to the ultimate without relying upon the conventional.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Sam Vara
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Sam Vara »

sphairos wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:43 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:40 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:18 pm
Belief in anything, and especially in rebirth doesn't have anything to do with the teaching of the Buddha. Buddhism is scepticism.
The Buddha taught that part of the road to abandoning all dukkha is to have faith in him, and to accept rebirth. This ain’t secularism.
No, he taught that one shouldn't have any view. Right view is no-view.
Is it your view that Right View is no-view? :stirthepot:
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Right view is not no view. He literally says what right view is and it does not include no view.
And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
There is nothing in Buddhism that suggests blind skepticism. The closest thing is the kalama sutta where he criticizes blind faith and contemplation over direct experience.
"Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them...

"When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."
He taught it was bad to cling to views not to have no view at all.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by sphairos »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:29 pm Right view is not no view. He literally says what right view is and it does not include no view.
And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
There is nothing in Buddhism that suggests blind skepticism. The closest thing is the kalama sutta where he criticizes blind faith and contemplation over direct experience.
"Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them...

"When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."
He taught it was bad to cling to views not to have no view at all.
Read MN 74.

What you quote as the right view is the stained right view. The real, noble right view is the absence of views.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by cappuccino »

SarathW wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:03 am Why do people become religious?
Buddhist because suffering


Christian because sin
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JohnK
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by JohnK »

For most individuals, I'd vote 6 and 10: "brainwashed by parents" as a coarse way of saying "born into it" -- it's just a part of "how things are," what is taken for granted in the culture. The comfort of being "part of a group" also fits with this -- it is easier to go along with the group uncritically, in fact, it does not generally occur to people to question unless an alternative is encountered.

For people in general, as in why religion is so ubiquitous in human societies, I'd vote for "curiosity" (#5) in the sense of wanting to know "what the heck is going on?" I also vote for fear of the unknown (#4) or the unpredictable; I think most religions offer an explanation for why things are the way they are and have a component of being able to influence things that seem uncontrollable (through rituals, prayer, etc.).
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by TRobinson465 »

sphairos wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:53 pm
Read MN 74.

What you quote as the right view is the stained right view. The real, noble right view is the absence of views.
When it comes to the view of the ascetics and brahmins who believe in some things and not in others, a sensible person reflects like this: ‘I have the view that I believe in some things and not in others. Suppose I obstinately stick to this view and insist that, “This is the only truth, other ideas are silly.” Then I’d argue with two people—an ascetic or brahmin who believes in everything, and an ascetic or brahmin who believes in nothing. And when there’s arguing, there’s quarreling; when there’s quarreling there’s anguish; and when there’s anguish there’s harm.’ So, considering in themselves the potential for arguing, quarreling, anguish, and harm, they give up that view by not grasping another view. That’s how those views are given up and let go.
There is nothing in MN 74 that's says the absence of views is more Noble than the actual views the Lord Buddha calls right view. In fact the sutta strongly implies the other point I made, that it is the "clinging" to views that is wrong. Not having any views at all. In fact the idea that the Lord Buddha taught having no view is in of itself a view. And asserting this is his true teaching is the clinging to views that he is criticizing.

The only thing I got from that sutta is that perhaps this and every other forum shouldn't even exist since it's a place for people who cling to views to quarrel about them and vilify those with other views.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by un8- »

sphairos wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:53 pm Belief in anything, and especially in rebirth doesn't have anything to do with the teaching of the Buddha. Buddhism is scepticism.
100%

Ghandharan Buddhism even influenced the creation of skepticism as Pyrhho was one of the founders of skepticism.

I would also say the defining characteristic of religion is blind faith, not logic.

The two sotapanna-path attainers are faith followers and dhamma followers, one is by faith, the other is by reason/logic.

However faith in Buddhism isn't blind faith as in it's not unverifiable. You can't verify that splashing water on a baby (baptism) will result in going to heaven. You can't verify if rebirth is true, but you can by way of deduction verify no-self to a degree, you can verify conditionality, you can verify impermanence, and you can verify feelings and dukkha. These are all what it means to be an Ariya, the Supermundane teaching visible here and now.

Unfortunately many members here are very religious, ritualistic, and dogmatic. They take mundane right view (rebirth) to be the teaching of the Buddha, but there is nothing uniquely buddhist about rebirth, and even if rebirth is true, belief in it doesn't guarantee anything. Mundane right view is subject to falling back. Supermundane right view is not subject to falling back. That means if rebirth is actually true, that means a person probably had mundane right view and wrong view in the infinite cycles of samsara. You can lose your mundane right view, you can't lose Supermundane right view. So all these ritualistic religious people on this forum are focusing and wasting their time arguing for something they can't even keep and is subject to loss.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Post by sunnat »

Buddha taught a way out of ignorance, to a goal where there are no views, no religion, no rituals. Faith serves as a means to the end and it is also a wholesome by-product. In time, through diligent practice, faith is replaced by true knowledge. True knowledge arises through direct experience by practicing. Faith facilitates the important continuance of the practice.
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 pm
Ghandharan Buddhism even influenced the creation of skepticism as Pyrhho was one of the founders of skepticism.
The ascetics that Pyrrho interacted with were wandering naked ascetics. Given that and that he took from them some teachings which he fashioned into a form of scepticism, I think the Jains are more likely. Look up anekāntavāda.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekantavada
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by SarathW »

JohnK wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:05 pm For most individuals, I'd vote 6 and 10: "brainwashed by parents" as a coarse way of saying "born into it" -- it's just a part of "how things are," what is taken for granted in the culture. The comfort of being "part of a group" also fits with this -- it is easier to go along with the group uncritically, in fact, it does not generally occur to people to question unless an alternative is encountered.

For people in general, as in why religion is so ubiquitous in human societies, I'd vote for "curiosity" (#5) in the sense of wanting to know "what the heck is going on?" I also vote for fear of the unknown (#4) or the unpredictable; I think most religions offer an explanation for why things are the way they are and have a component of being able to influence things that seem uncontrollable (through rituals, prayer, etc.).
Agree.
Perhaps this can be called follow the herd behavior. You are protected when you are in the herd.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 pm
Unfortunately many members here are very religious, ritualistic, and dogmatic.
In this history of this page, secular Buddhists and those who deny the Buddha either taught rebirth or it’s importance have been the most dogmatic and unpleasant.
However faith in Buddhism isn't blind faith as in it's not unverifiable. You can't verify that splashing water on a baby (baptism) will result in going to heaven. You can't verify if rebirth is true, but you can by way of deduction verify no-self to a degree, you can verify conditionality, you can verify impermanence, and you can verify feelings and dukkha. These are all what it means to be an Ariya, the Supermundane teaching visible here and now.
Rebirth is verifiable though in much the same way that Jhana is, or Nibbana. You seem to be implying that rebirth can never be known, yet the Buddha says that it can be known.
The two sotapanna-path attainers are faith followers and dhamma followers, one is by faith, the other is by reason/logic.
Both still have faith.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:38 pm
un8- wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 pm
Ghandharan Buddhism even influenced the creation of skepticism as Pyrhho was one of the founders of skepticism.
The ascetics that Pyrrho interacted with were wandering naked ascetics. Given that and that he took from them some teachings which he fashioned into a form of scepticism, I think the Jains are more likely. Look up anekāntavāda.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekantavada
Pyrrho taught the 3 characteristics and dependent origination but using greek terminology as he repackaged it for greeks
According to Christopher I. Beckwith's analysis of the Aristocles Passage, adiaphora (anatta), astathmēta (dukkha), and anepikrita (anicca) are strikingly similar to the Buddhist three marks of existence,[38] indicating that Pyrrho's teaching is based on Buddhism. Beckwith contends that the 18 months Pyrrho spent in India was long enough to learn a foreign language, and that the key innovative tenets of Pyrrho's skepticism were only found in Indian philosophy at the time and not in Greece.[39]
3 characteristics
Whoever wants eudaimonia (to live well) must consider these three questions: First, how are pragmata (ethical matters, affairs, topics) by nature? Secondly, what attitude should we adopt towards them? Thirdly, what will be the outcome for those who have this attitude?" Pyrrho's answer is that "As for pragmata they are all adiaphora (undifferentiated by a logical differentia), astathmēta (unstable, unbalanced, not measurable), and anepikrita (unjudged, unfixed, undecidable). Therefore, neither our sense-perceptions nor our doxai (views, theories, beliefs) tell us the truth or lie; so we certainly should not rely on them. Rather, we should be adoxastous (without views), aklineis (uninclined toward this side or that), and akradantous (unwavering in our refusal to choose), saying about every single one that it no more is than it is not or it both is and is not or it neither is nor is not. The outcome for those who actually adopt this attitude, says Timon, will be first aphasia (speechlessness, non-assertion) and then ataraxia (freedom from disturbance), and Aenesidemus says pleasure.[37]

Dependent Origination and anatta
...they say that appearances, which they call φαντασίαι, are produced from all objects, not according to the nature of the objects themselves, but according to the condition of mind or body of those to whom these appearances come. Therefore they call absolutely all things that affect men's sense τὰ πρός τι (i.e., "things relative to something else.") This expression means that there is nothing at all that is self-dependent or which has its own power and nature, but that absolutely all things have "reference to something else" and seem to be such as their is appearance is while they are seen, and such as they are formed by our senses, to whom they come, not by the things themselves, from which they have proceeded.[41]
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why do people become religious?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:47 pm
Pyrrho taught the 3 characteristics and dependent origination but using greek terminology as he repackaged it for greeks
We know very little of what Pyrrho actually taught, bar snippets here and there and his proclivity towards nearly killing himself. Sextus would be the go to for Pyrrhonism.

adiaphora (anatta), astathmēta (dukkha), and anepikrita (anicca)
You need to start providing references. Regarding the above, it seems a stretch. Is there anything in the etymology that shows a connection? As I say, the gymnosophists were said to be naked wanderers. This sounds like Jains or the Ājīvikas. I can easily see how the Jain theory of anekāntavāda can be twisted into a scepticism. Less so for what little we know of the Ājīvikas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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