Adolf Hitler

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DNS
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by DNS »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:20 am I've never really been interested in what seems a rather murky topic, but those who want to explore a little deeper might profit from a look at David Reynolds' (Paññobhāsa) blog:
Remarkably, it is a more or less Theravada Buddhist society which nevertheless also supports a kind of deified hero cult of Adolf Hitler.
There's quite a lot of stuff there about Hitler. You can follow your nose, or hold it, according to taste...
Bizarre, to say the least. I realize one can pick and choose Dhammic principles to justify just about any political persuasion; conservative, liberal, libertarian, etc, but Nazism? The First Precept is not to kill. We're not even supposed to kill insects, even when they enter our home and Nazis openly called for killing Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc.
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Sam Vara »

Agreed. I'm torn between intellectual curiosity ("How on earth is he going to justify that?!") and emotional repugnance.

To be fair, he does say that he is completely against the killing advocated by Nazis. I can only guess that he unpicks those aspects from such philosophy as he is in agreement with. But my overall stance is "Why go there?".
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Re: Adolf Hitler

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Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:15 pm But my overall stance is "Why go there?".
Because when people sink into the depths of boredom and meaninglessness they always find solace in antagonism. It is one of those rare acts that can truly reflect back to you that you actually exist (anyone see Joker yet). In the case of Ruhe (and most people who relish in antagonism), it is clear that his commitment is nothing but an endless framework of consistent reciprocation, i.e. constant action, constant stimulation. In other words, being antagonistic - even to oneself - yields the most feedback and combats boredom far more effectively than being virtuous and compassionate, which would silence the landscape; leaving an opportunity to see the depths of suffering.

The direction explored by Ruhe and others who would couple their deviant inclinations to the Dhamma is nothing but a sign of a failure to have the Dhamma pay any dividends. When you tap out, but still love the idea of what the Dhamma is, you couple it to whatever delights you. We've seen it from all sorts of unsavory characters and this is no different.
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:31 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:15 pm But my overall stance is "Why go there?".
Because when people sink into the depths of boredom and meaninglessness they always find solace in antagonism. It is one of those rare acts that can truly reflect back to you that you actually exist (anyone see Joker yet). In the case of Ruhe (and most people who relish in antagonism), it is clear that his commitment is nothing but an endless framework of consistent reciprocation, i.e. constant action, constant stimulation. In other words, being antagonistic - even to oneself - yields the most feedback and combats boredom far more effectively than being virtuous and compassionate, which silence the landscape - leaving an opportunity to see the depths of suffering.

The direction explored by Ruhe and others who would couple their deviant inclinations to the Dhamma is nothing but a sign of a failure to have the Dhamma pay any dividends. When you tap out, but still love the idea of what the Dhamma is, you couple it to whatever delights you. We've seen it from all sorts of unsavory characters and this is no different.
Yes, I meant "Why go there?" to reflect my own personal disinclination to engage with is sort of material, but what you say makes a lot of sense. Probably this sort of antagonism also motivates a lot of posts on DW, in a low-key sort of way. Being told you are wrong by an imagined person in another continent is certainly a confirmation of one's existence!

Ruhe just looks like a poseur, so I've never bothered with him. I like a lot of the saner stuff that Reynolds writes, though. He's a bit of an oddball, but has a real talent for getting to the heart of intellectual problems.
Last edited by Sam Vara on Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Modus.Ponens »

DNS wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:02 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:20 am I've never really been interested in what seems a rather murky topic, but those who want to explore a little deeper might profit from a look at David Reynolds' (Paññobhāsa) blog:
Remarkably, it is a more or less Theravada Buddhist society which nevertheless also supports a kind of deified hero cult of Adolf Hitler.
There's quite a lot of stuff there about Hitler. You can follow your nose, or hold it, according to taste...
Bizarre, to say the least. I realize one can pick and choose Dhammic principles to justify just about any political persuasion; conservative, liberal, libertarian, etc, but Nazism? The First Precept is not to kill. We're not even supposed to kill insects, even when they enter our home and Nazis openly called for killing Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc.
Exaclty. I am stunned that there even exist people who believe the two are compatible, let alone similar.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by binocular »

sunnat wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:28 amThere is much more, but to sum up: for a starving street person with psychopathic tendencies, full of anger and imagination and with buddhism as understood at that time it's not hard to see the direct connections.
The most peculiar thing that I find about the social discourse about Hitler is that so many people blame him exclusively -- as if he somehow single-handedly, on his own, a one-man-endeavor masterminded the whole disaster that was then WWII; that he forced perfectly good, innocent people into following him and obeying him. That's just bizarre ...

* * *
Volo wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:38 amFrom what I've read about Hitler, I think he wasn't very much into mysticism or religion. I've heard he hadn't even gone to see the Holy Lance - so little interest he had in the occult matters. Himmler was the one who was deeply into such things.
I seriously doubt those at the top took any of it seriously -- as in: they didn't believe it. It was propaganda, carefully researched, produced, and delivered for maximum effect. They had a whole ministry of propaganda -- Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda.

* * *
DNS wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:02 pmBizarre, to say the least. I realize one can pick and choose Dhammic principles to justify just about any political persuasion; conservative, liberal, libertarian, etc, but Nazism? The First Precept is not to kill. We're not even supposed to kill insects, even when they enter our home and Nazis openly called for killing Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc.
It's the right-wing authoritarianism that is the link between Buddhism and Nazism.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by salayatananirodha »

hitler should have read assalāyana sutta https://suttacentral.net/mn93/en/horner
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Dan74 »

binocular wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:00 pm It's the right-wing authoritarianism that is the link between Buddhism and Nazism.
I don't think conformism and uniformity are helpful to or even compatible with Dhamma practice.
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Re: Adolf Hitler

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He will be more useful to be studied on the subject on karma.
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by binocular »

Dan74 wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:02 pm
binocular wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:00 pm It's the right-wing authoritarianism that is the link between Buddhism and Nazism.
I don't think conformism and uniformity are helpful to or even compatible with Dhamma practice.
They are not only compatible with Buddhism, the religion, but necessary for it.

It's questionable whether one can get to the Dhamma without first getting through Buddhism.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:16 pm
Dan74 wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:02 pm
binocular wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:00 pm It's the right-wing authoritarianism that is the link between Buddhism and Nazism.
I don't think conformism and uniformity are helpful to or even compatible with Dhamma practice.
They are not only compatible with Buddhism, the religion, but necessary for it.
One can expect to find "conformism and uniformity" in any group in which membership or self-identification is voluntary. That's merely trivially true. If you join a tennis or birdwatching club, you are to that extent uniform and conforming.

But what is the link between "right wing authoritarianism" and Buddhism? I've known some Buddhists who could probably be said to fit the model in the link. But I have known very many more who would not fit that model. In the context of this discussion, Pannobhasa certainly wouldn't. So where are they?
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:00 pm The most peculiar thing that I find about the social discourse about Hitler is that so many people blame him exclusively -- as if he somehow single-handedly, on his own, a one-man-endeavor masterminded the whole disaster that was then WWII; that he forced perfectly good, innocent people into following him and obeying him. That's just bizarre ...
:goodpost:

I think Hitler, as a symbol of what is evil, says more about our tendency to seek simple explanations over complicated issues. Also to put the blame on one person is an easy way of assigning responsibility. Assigning responsibility on a particular human being is a way of avoiding it. The brutality of the first and second world wars revealed how unpleasant our nature can be.

The only connection i can think of between "Hitler" and Buddhism is that both perceive following the law of nature (or the way things are) is the highest virtue. If nature seems unpleasant to you, then you better change your views. Do not blame nature.

The Nazis were scientifically advanced at that time, and cared to provide scientific "or natural" explanations to justify their actions. If the law of nature is the survival of the fittest, then the highest virtue (or harmonious way of living) is to accelerate it, not to oppose it. From that perspective, compassion and worldly morality are deluded and hindrances to progress and the evolution of enlightened human beings. This, in a way, is not too different from how some Buddhists explain enlightenment, that is, to die before dying.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:41 pm
binocular wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:00 pm The most peculiar thing that I find about the social discourse about Hitler is that so many people blame him exclusively -- as if he somehow single-handedly, on his own, a one-man-endeavor masterminded the whole disaster that was then WWII; that he forced perfectly good, innocent people into following him and obeying him. That's just bizarre ...
:goodpost:

I think Hitler, as a symbol of what is evil, says more about our tendency to seek simple explanations over complicated issues. Also to put the blame on one person is an easy way of assigning responsibility. Assigning responsibility on a particular human being is a way of avoiding it. The brutality of the first and second world wars revealed how unpleasant our nature can be.
Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust is a 1996 book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen, in which he argues that the vast majority of ordinary Germans were "willing executioners" in the Holocaust because of a unique and virulent "eliminationist antisemitism" in German political culture which had developed in the preceding centuries. Goldhagen argues that eliminationist antisemitism was the cornerstone of German national identity, was unique to Germany, and because of it ordinary German conscripts killed Jews willingly. Goldhagen asserts that this mentality grew out of medieval attitudes rooted in religion and was later secularized.

The book challenges several common ideas about the Holocaust that Goldhagen believes to be myths. These "myths" include the idea that most Germans did not know about the Holocaust; that only the SS, and not average members of the Wehrmacht, participated in murdering Jews; and that genocidal antisemitism was a uniquely Nazi ideology without historical antecedents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27 ... ecutioners
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:20 pmBut what is the link between "right wing authoritarianism" and Buddhism? I've known some Buddhists who could probably be said to fit the model in the link. But I have known very many more who would not fit that model. In the context of this discussion, Pannobhasa certainly wouldn't. So where are they?
I don't have the stomach for this right now. I'll come back later.
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Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by sunnat »

sunnat wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:28 am When Hitler was malnourished and homeless on the streets he liked to go to the opera. His favourite was Wagner. Buddhism was relatively new to Europe. Wagner was interested. "Wagner became increasingly preoccupied with Buddhist and Brahmin philosophy and literature during the 1850s, one of the most difficult periods in his life. It might be that he sought an authentic, true religion. In the relatively late texts of Buddhist literature that were available to him, Wagner thought that he could discern an ancient and authentic teaching. It seems that during this period he had turned away from Christianity, which for Wagner had been corrupted by Jewish influences."
His opera 'Parsifal' appears based on the life of Siddharta. Hitler imagined himself as Parsifal. Some elements of Buddhism as understood at this time were the role of will and asceticism.

There is much more, but to sum up: for a starving street person with psychopathic tendencies, full of anger and imagination and with buddhism as understood at that time it's not hard to see the direct connections.
Here are a few links:

Wagner, Buddhism and Parsifal - monsalvat.no
https://www.monsalvat.no/india.htm

Wagner, Parsifal and Nazism
https://www.monsalvat.no/nazism.htm

A must read: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/230 ... ung-hitler
Young Hitler by Paul Ham
About the formative years.
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