Adolf Hitler

Some topics tend to get heated and go off track in unwholesome ways quite quickly. The "hot topics" sub-forum is a place where such topics may be moved so that each post must be manually approved by moderator before it will become visible to members.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 10629
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:59 am
48vows wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:27 pm Fascism generally has alot of emphasis on nationalism and the military. I'm not sure that buddha would be on board with all that so much.
Every worldly system has military therefore this consideration is irrelevant. As for nationalism, DN 16 has the teaching about the welfare of the nation. Fascism appears the closest political system to dhammic politics. Hard for may caught up in colloquial usage of language to accept when they confuse the imperialism of Nazi Germany with fascism. This video has a good explanation.
The Italian term fascismo is derived from fascio meaning "a bundle of sticks", ultimately from the Latin word fasces.This was the name given to political organizations in Italy known as fasci, groups similar to guilds or syndicates....
The symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity: a single rod is easily broken, while the bundle is difficult to break. Similar symbols were developed by different fascist movements: for example, the Falange symbol is five arrows joined together by a yoke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Etymology
But Fascism isn’t close to “Dhamma politics” or the Wheel Turning Monarch. Monarchism is close to that, not Fascism. Monarchs are priestly rulers and act as an intermediary between the divine cosmic order and the worldly order below, ruling as philosopher like kings. That’s is part of what maintains the social order in this line of thought, and it’s the thought world of the DN. In comparison the Il Duce of Fascism is not a monarch. He is not an intermediary between the divine cosmic order and humanity. He is a politician (sometimes a general). A dictator. Fascism then is just another form of Modernism, thus being antithetical to the ideal system of the Dhamma. I mean, Fascism itself even claimed that it was a futuristic ideology, not a Traditionalist one. There was even an art form that came from it called “Futurism”. It was reasons like these that Evola never fully committed to Fascism.

So, in short if you want to find something that’s close to the ideal political system of the DN you look to monarchies, not the modernism of Fascism.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9463
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:28 am But Fascism isn’t close to “Dhamma politics” ...
Fascism is close to the Six Directions in DN 31. For example, economically, fascism recognises the equal importance of both capital & labour. Fascism, similar to Buddhism, only focuses on those factors in a society necessary for the upholding of the society. Therefore, fascism says those subversives are to be eliminated while Buddhism may include subversives as outcastes. Thus, fascism removed the sex industry, including its homosexuals, from the society. Buddhism remains silent about these things but both have a similar attitude about the non-dhammic nature of such orientations.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 10629
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:25 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:28 am But Fascism isn’t close to “Dhamma politics” ...
Fascism is close to the Six Directions in DN 31. For example, economically, fascism recognises the equal importance of both capital & labour. Fascism, similar to Buddhism, only focuses on those factors in a society necessary for the upholding of the society. Therefore, fascism says those subversives are to be eliminated while Buddhism may include subversives as outcastes. Thus, fascism removed the sex industry, including its homosexuals, from the society. Buddhism remains silent about these things but both have a similar attitude about the non-dhammic nature of such orientations.
This seems a rather superficial comparison. Many non-Fascist ideologies or systems also recognise the importance of capital & labour (and of course, Fascism in practice tended to favour capital over and above labour). The ideal political system in the DN is that of the priestly king. The monarch who rules in accordance with Dhamma and acts as an intermediary, or exemplar of, the cosmic order. This is the role kings and queens played/play in society. Fascism, being a western secular ideology dreamt up by disgruntled Marxists, is not that. The Fascist state is a Republic. As I said, this is why Evola (quite rightly it seems) rejected Fascism as just another Modernism. Il Duce was not a priestly king. He was not an intermediary between the cosmic order and the world. He was a lecherous and pompous (also incompetent) politician. Even outside of Italy, Fascism was always a Modernist movement that never even attempted to embark upon a Traditionalist project. Hitler (another secular politician), for example, had the opportunity to restore the monarchy but he refused the request. If you want to find something as close as possible in today's world to the ideal system of the DN then you need to look to monarchies. The ideal King is a King, so you have to start there.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 18097
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by mikenz66 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:16 pm. If you want to find something as close as possible in today's world to the ideal system of the DN then you need to look to monarchies. ...
I do have some sympathy for how some (constitutional) monarchies appeared to be very helpful to holding a few countries together though in the 20th C (e.g. Thailand and the UK).
However, I think that we need to use some care in applying the suttas to modern political systems. The Buddha didn't discuss how to run a country using parliamentary democracy. That doesn't mean he would have disapproved of such a structure, had it existed. I think if you want to take lessons from the suttas into modern societies you need to focus on principles, not details.

One could, perhaps, take some clues from statements about how a good king would look after the welfare of the people. And the Vinaya does set up a consensus-model governance and shared resources. However, the monastic community was dependent on lay people for those resources, so you'd have to be careful about mapping that onto a whole society.

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9463
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:16 pm This seems a rather superficial comparison. Many non-Fascist ideologies or systems also recognise the importance of capital & labour
Actually, it is the above that is both superficial & false. If we read books by real Buddhists (rather than Neo-Cons), such as Buddhadasa or P.A. Payutto, they all says capitalism (which devalues labour) and communism (which overvalues labour) are extremes. If you wish to make an argument, the please provide a substantive argument rather than a trite unsubstantiated black kettle argument. I even recall Ven. Dhammanando posting once that the Buddhist Welfare of A Nation could come from a fascist or Nazi manifesto. As for your obsession with the Wheel Turning Monarch, this is not the only political system found in the suttas. As I have posted, the Welfare of The Nation was taught to the Vajjis, who appeared to not engage in monarchy but were a Republic.
Vesāli was the capital of the Licchavis and Mithilā of the Videhas. In the time of the Buddha, both Vesāli and Mithilā were republics, though Mithilā had earlier been a kingdom under Janaka.

https://suttacentral.net/define/vajj%C4%AB
:alien:
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:37 pm I do have some sympathy for how some (constitutional) monarchies appeared to be very helpful to holding a few countries together though in the 20th C (e.g. Thailand and the UK).
The absolute monarchy was abolished in 1932 but since has performed a role in holding together the military dictatorships, including contributing to events such as the Thammasat University Massacre. In other words, it appears highly questionable there is anything inherently Buddhist about the Thai Royal Family, who are among the most wealthy in the world and appear to probably not distribute their personal wealth as described in DN 26 about the Dhamma King.

Always amusing to read the "Establishment" views of the New-Left & Old-Right, which are now one & the same. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Dan74
Posts: 3612
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Dan74 »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:25 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:28 am But Fascism isn’t close to “Dhamma politics” ...
Fascism is close to the Six Directions in DN 31. For example, economically, fascism recognises the equal importance of both capital & labour. Fascism, similar to Buddhism, only focuses on those factors in a society necessary for the upholding of the society. Therefore, fascism says those subversives are to be eliminated while Buddhism may include subversives as outcastes. Thus, fascism removed the sex industry, including its homosexuals, from the society. Buddhism remains silent about these things but both have a similar attitude about the non-dhammic nature of such orientations.
Fascism does much more than that. It promotes the ideology of nationalism, some fiction around the notion of a national identity and its exclusivism, a personality cult of the leader, who embodies the nation and of course, groupthink - it brooks no dissent. The State is above all - the individual has no rights before the State.
_/|\_
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 10629
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:30 am
Actually, it is the above that is both superficial & false. If we read books by real Buddhists (rather than Neo-Cons), such as Buddhadasa or P.A. Payutto, they all says capitalism (which devalues labour) and communism (which overvalues labour) are extremes.
Capitalism is not an extreme which "devalues labour". Capitalism is simply trade for profit, with investment back into the business to grow it. It can take an exploitative form, but it doesn't have to. Fascist Italy still had capitalism but they claimed their corporatist system would balance capital and labour, uniting both under the banner of Nationalism. In reality Capital and the State got into bed with each other and both dominated labour completely. I mean, even Mussolini acknowledged this when he founded Italian Fascism Take 2, i.e. Italian Social Republic. This wasn't unique to the Italians though of course. Everywhere Fascism has been tried it worked out the same. The merger of business with the state to dominate labour and society at large, despite the rhetoric. I agree with you about Communism.

Let's look at DN 31 (I'm not a fan of Sujato's translation):
"A master should serve their bondservants and workers as the lower quarter in five ways: by organizing work according to ability, by paying food and wages, by nursing them when sick, by sharing special treats, and by giving time off work. Bondservants and workers served by a master in these five ways show compassion to them in five ways. They get up first, and go to bed last. They don’t steal. They do their work well. And they promote a good reputation. Bondservants and workers served by a master in these five ways show compassion to them in these five ways. And that’s how the lower quarter is covered, kept safe and free of peril."
Nothing in this requires Fascism. You can find this in many other systems. Many of the modern western welfare states, of regulated capitalism, have this. Monarchy can also provide this, which is distinct from Fascism. In short, your claim that "the Western political doctrine closest to political Buddhism appears to be fascism" turns out to be a rather hollow one.

If you wish to make an argument, the please provide a substantive argument rather than a trite unsubstantiated black kettle argument. I even recall Ven. Dhammanando posting once that the Buddhist Welfare of A Nation could come from a fascist or Nazi manifesto. As for your obsession with the Wheel Turning Monarch, this is not the only political system found in the suttas. As I have posted, the Welfare of The Nation was taught to the Vajjis, who appeared to not engage in monarchy but were a Republic.
Whilst the Buddha praised the Vajjis the ideal system, the best system conceived of in the suttas, is that of Monarchy. Specifically, a monarch who knows and also rules in accordance with Dhamma. This is understandable of course since, as I have said, monarchs are essentially high priests or intermediaries between the divine cosmic order and the human worldly order, between the metaphysical and the physical. When a monarch reigns as he should, in line with this cosmic truth, then balance and harmony is maintained in the world. When the monarch departs from this metaphysical truth, or is disposed of, then the universal order is disturbed. Disharmony sets in and society begins to decay. Its really just an extension of the thinking found in the Vedas, where the Brahmins and their sacrifices help to maintain the universal order. Its also almost universal to all pre-modern societies. The ideal political system then in Buddhism is Monarchy and so Monarchism is the political doctrine closest to the ideals of the suttas. Much, much closer than your Sorelian Marxism, i.e Fascism.

Only in Monarchy could we find a ruler who is an intermediary between the universal law of Dhamma and the world, not in Fascism. It is in Monarchy that all people can be united together, not in the "National Myth" of Fascism. It is in Monarchy where just rule can be found, and so all directions respected, not in the corporatism of Fascism.

Finally, as a final thought, Fascism glorifies war. War to Fascism is good. Imperialist expansion is good. Violent domination of others is good. This is a world away from the enlightened rule of the Wheel Turning Monarch.

"War alone keys up all human energies to their maximum tension and sets the seal of nobility on those peoples who have the courage to face it. All other tests are substitutes which never place a man face to face with himself before the alternative of life or death...Life as he understands it means duty, elevation, conquest; life must be lofty and full, it must be lived for oneself but above all for others, both near bye and far off, present and future." The Doctrine of Fascism - Benito Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:00 pm, edited 8 times in total.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 10629
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:37 pm
I do have some sympathy for how some (constitutional) monarchies appeared to be very helpful to holding a few countries together though in the 20th C (e.g. Thailand and the UK).
However, I think that we need to use some care in applying the suttas to modern political systems. The Buddha didn't discuss how to run a country using parliamentary democracy. That doesn't mean he would have disapproved of such a structure, had it existed. I think if you want to take lessons from the suttas into modern societies you need to focus on principles, not details.
My posts are in no way saying that all modern monarchies are ideal, or behaved well. If, however, we are to look for a political system which is close as possible to the ideals of the suttas then we have to look to monarchy. The Wheel Turning Monarch rules as the worldly counterpart to the Buddha. He knows and rules in accordance with the "divine" or cosmic/universal law, i.e. Dhamma. Only a King, or Queen, can take such a position. This has always been the position in society that Kings and Queens have taken.
One could, perhaps, take some clues from statements about how a good king would look after the welfare of the people. And the Vinaya does set up a consensus-model governance and shared resources. However, the monastic community was dependent on lay people for those resources, so you'd have to be careful about mapping that onto a whole society.
Republics can of course adopt some of the ideals, but they will always lack one key ingredient. As for the Vinaya, as you say that is for monastics only.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5776
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:30 am I even recall Ven. Dhammanando posting once that the Buddhist Welfare of A Nation could come from a fascist or Nazi manifesto.
I think it must be somebody else who wrote this. For the last two decades my view has been that traditionalist/Burkean conservatism is dhammic, revolutionary communism and fascism adhammic, and most other ideologies dhammically neutral (i.e. neither supported by nor in conflict with the Buddha's teaching).
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
coconut
Posts: 861
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 am

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by coconut »

History has shown that rigid societies whether communist or fascist, tend to perform poorly. A society that allows people to learn and develop on their own, usually do well. Even the early greek philosophers discussed as Plato wanted a society ruled by philosopher kings. While Aristotle saw that it would be advantageous for a king to be a philosopher, he understood that imposing a rigid society would not work, and in fact despised Plato for it and said that such an idea is reckless.

I agree. I believe society needs to cover the basics very very well, which is the state's monopoly on coercion, and everything else should be left open or free.

The only systems I could support is a good monarchy, a constitutional republic, or a swiss style semi-direct democracy where attaining citizenship is extremely hard, there is no federal government (or a weakened one), and individual cantons/states have their own power.
Last edited by coconut on Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 10629
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:40 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:30 am I even recall Ven. Dhammanando posting once that the Buddhist Welfare of A Nation could come from a fascist or Nazi manifesto.
I think it must be somebody else who wrote this. For the last two decades my view has been that traditionalist/Burkean conservatism is dhammic, revolutionary communism and fascism adhammic, and most other ideologies dhammically neutral (i.e. neither supported by nor in conflict with the Buddha's teaching).
Would you then agree with my points above Bhante?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5776
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Dhammanando »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:18 pm Would you then agree with my points above Bhante?
Yes
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9463
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:40 pm I think it must be somebody else who wrote this.
I do recall you made a comment on the Welfare of A Nation, somewhere, and compared it to a modern politic. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9463
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:24 pm Capitalism is not an extreme which "devalues labour". Capitalism is simply trade for profit... It can take an exploitative form, but it doesn't have to...
Oh dear.. what an opening contradictory statement. :D
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:24 pm Fascist Italy still had capitalism but they claimed their corporatist system would balance capital and labour, uniting both under the banner of Nationalism. In reality Capital and the State got into bed with each other and both dominated labour completely. I mean, even Mussolini acknowledged this when he founded Italian Fascism Take 2, i.e. Italian Social Republic. This wasn't unique to the Italians though of course. Everywhere Fascism has been tried it worked out the same. The merger of business with the state to dominate labour and society at large, despite the rhetoric.
Unsubstantiated nonsense. Regardless, my posts were about the philosophy rather than attempts at its practise. Your ideas are the same as saying Buddhism does not teach jhana and Nibbana because most Buddhists personally cannot reach these states
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:24 pmDN 31...Nothing in this requires Fascism.
Irrelevant to the point that fascism resembles dhamma.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:24 pmYou can find this in many other systems. Many of the modern western welfare states, of regulated capitalism, have this. Monarchy can also provide this, which is distinct from Fascism. In short, your claim that "the Western political doctrine closest to political Buddhism appears to be fascism" turns out to be a rather hollow one.
No. The working classes struggled to achieve a welfare state. In fact, it was mostly after WW2 when the welfare state came into existence. It is whatever you write that is hollow.

Enough. Back on ignore.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5776
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Adolf Hitler

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:44 am I do recall you made a comment on the Welfare of A Nation, somewhere, and compared it to a modern politic. :smile:
No doubt I have, but without ever identifying fascism or Nazism as viable bases for that welfare.

When I speak of fascism as un-dhammic and anti-dhammic what I'm referring to is fascism as it was defined by Robert Paxton. His definition was actually quoted in the Wiki entry that you linked to earlier:
... a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.
The part in bold is the chief problem, the notion of state violence as redemptive, as opposed to its being occasionally a necessary evil; the gratuitous belief in the justice of expanding one's territory (Hitler's obsession with Lebensraum, Mussolini's greed to own North Africa); the "cleansing" of one's nation by exterminating this or that despised ethnic or sexual minority group, along with all one's political opponents; and the abandonment of constitutionality and the rule of law and their replacement by essentially capricious and despotic acts of state, carried out "without ethical or legal restraint".
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
Post Reply