Gay and Buddhism

Some topics tend to get heated and go off track in unwholesome ways quite quickly. The "hot topics" sub-forum is a place where such topics may be moved so that each post must be manually approved by moderator before it will become visible to members.
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by Mahabrahma »

Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:20 am
Mahabrahma wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:38 am Real Buddhist Ordination rules on gender and sexuality only have to do with celibacy, morality, and honour. If one can maintain celibacy, Buddha would let them join, and celibacy can only be maintained through perfect sense control and compassion for oneself and others, not bigotry such as homophobia or putting those down who have abnormal or mutilated genitals, or any other bodily misunderstandings or hurts that have happened to the body. And do you think Buddha never had a gay thought? Have you been clear of such thoughts all your life? Buddhism is about taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha, and once you take refuge no one should ever take you away from your home, for you which is such peace. Anyone barring someone from ordaining as a Buddhist based on anything except for Spiritual qualification is ignorant and non-Buddhist, pushing a non-Buddhist doctorine that you should steer clear of. It is difficult to attain Perfection, but such a thing can only be done by following the True Teachings of the Buddha, which come from and are only Metta and compassion.
I 99% agree. I think the Buddha had to consider other things too. For example, how the monks and the monastic order appeared to the lay community, avoiding a bad reputation and rumours, etc. He had to consider not only fairness to individual monastics but the big picture too that inevitably involves contemporary social mores. Of course, we don't know for certain which rules really do come from the Buddha, which were perhaps applied to a specific situation and then became a general rule, without such intention from the Buddha and which actually came later.
Consider this story about the Buddha's dedication:
(3) The World-Honored One, continuing his travel, came to Kosambi and entered the Ghosita Monastery built by the wealthy man Ghosita. Magandiya, who had now become the first queen of King Udena, was waiting for her chance for revenge. Hearing of the arrival of the World-Honored One, she bribed thugs in the city and had them denounce the Buddha. The disciples of the Buddha heard these slanderous attacks directed against their master and they were greatly troubled. Ananda went to the Buddha and said, “World-Honored One, it is my belief that we do not have to stay in such a place as this. I believe that it is better for us to move to another place.”

“Ananda, if we move to another place and if such slanders should occur again, what will we do then?”

“World-Honored One, we should again move to another town.”

“Ananda, in that case there will be no limit to this no matter where we go. I believe that it is better that I silently endure whatever slander I may receive and wait for it to cease. Then I can move to another place. Ananda, the Buddha is not moved by the eight things: gain, loss, fame, slander, praise, derision, suffering, and pleasure. These slanderous attacks will cease in seven days.” The scheme of Magandiya completely failed; the number of persons who came to believe in the World-Honored One increased, and the slanders against the Buddha ceased.
-Buddha-Dharma: The Way To Enlightenment.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3662
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by confusedlayman »

Lust arising on particular object is due to ignorance of seeing it as solid with inherant existance, deligiting in impermanent object thinking it as permanent and resulting feeling is craved and clinging and gratified

By seeing something as impermanent process and volitation activity also as intentional then u know it will come to end and wont cling to

If u understand the above.. why wont u call urself with right view? It doesnt matter if u have lust for boy or girl as lust conciousness arise in both case and can be known and rooted out in both case

Hence gay or lesbian or animal sex abuser doesnt matter.. all that matters is are you willing to take out lust with 8 fold path? Have u thought about it?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
rhinoceroshorn
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

dylanj wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 5:09 pm I'm a gay man. I'm not convinced that paṇḍaka doesn't simply refer to homosexual. The commentarial explanation is irrelevant, the commentary is very late & gets lots of things wrong. In the vinaya when the term is used the paṇḍaka in question is clearly a homosexual man. It might refer to a specific type of homosexual or a sexual non-conformist, it might not. I definitely don't see any reason, though, why homosexuals would be incapable of enlightenment. If anything this rule would in my opinion in place because it causes sexual issues within what's supposed to be a celibate community. I've considered ordaining myself & the question of how skillful it would be to maintain celibacy while surrounded by men has troubled me, I think it's a legitimate concern.
This was one of the few time times I saw Dylan here on the forum and this post marked me a lot.
I wonder if his interpretation of pandaka had not influenced him.

I must say if I had no prospect of ordaining I would not know what to do with this life of mine. Nothing attracts me in the lay life. I think I would not bear that for long. To say the least. :smile:

I totally disagree with pandaka = gay. If you are reading this and are gay and are considering ordaining, don't let it make you feel bad. Also, ignore what the commentaries say, they are irrelevant. Be well.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 9887
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr »

[quote=rhinoceroshorn post_id=586185 time=1603147009

Also, ignore what the commentaries say, they are irrelevant. Be well.[/quote]

It’s one thing to disagree with the commentaries on x or y issue, but it’s another to completely disregard them. I think you are the only person I know who actually does that, and that includes all of the sutta only types. Also, the commentaries don’t say that gays can’t be ordained anyway. Actually kind of the opposite.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 3275
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu »

The Theravadin commentaries are actually rather progressive, allowing the ordination of I think 2 out of 5 pandakas. I appreciate the want to say "Pandakas aren't even homosexuals," but the sorts of things Buddhist has to say about homosexuals really aren't anything particularly special. All world-historical religions more-or-less have the same thing to say about sex that is not for procreation and not in the context of a traditional heterosexual marriage. Homophobia, like sexism, is an omnipresent human reality, and it really makes sense to see it more than it would to not see it reflected in all of our human religions. Venerable Buddhaghosa, despite having translated the vinaya commentaries allowing for the ordination of "sprinkled ones," says in his Visuddhimagga that none of the pandakas are capable of sustaining any kind of samadhi. Perhaps the Buddha really thought like that, who knows? Maybe God is the devil and the devil is God. Who knows? It's not useful to me if I can't make any progress in Buddhism, so I just ignore the various narratives within it telling me to get out, and this is easier when no one thinks you are gay for certain. I doubt homophobia in Buddhism was a significant contributing factor in Dylan's death, whatever he died from, but certainly it is hard being a gay youth.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
User avatar
rhinoceroshorn
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

My problem with commentaries in regard to this matter is simply the proliferation they created around pandaka.

For example, jf you read Vinaya you'll see they “allow” the ordination of bottom gay males, but not of bisexuals (half-time pandaka) What is the logic behind this? :lol:
Utterly arbitrary and I doubt the Buddha would have formulated such an arbitrary thing like this.

Curiously commentaries do the same proliferation with other things in the canon. A confusion-maker.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
User avatar
rhinoceroshorn
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:07 am I doubt homophobia in Buddhism was a significant contributing factor in Dylan's death, whatever he died from, but certainly it is hard being a gay youth.
I didn't say that.
I meant, if you are gay, you want to ordain and you believe you can't because of your particular interpretation of the EBT (Dylan's case), this can be a real problem.
As I exemplified with myself: if I had no prospect of ordination I'd be very sad and without knowing what to do. I'd be lost since I see no stimulus to keep being a layman.
I saw Dylan here and on Facebook sometimes, but never really talked to him so I can't say for him, but I remember his friend salayatananirodha said this:
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:21 pm my mom depends on me financially
i have various unpaid debts
i may or may not be a paṇḍaka
not sure how well i could handle some of the practical concerns due to back surgery
See? One of the impediments for him to ordain is not knowing if he is classified as a pandaka or not.
Let's be honest, why the hell would the Buddha make people confused about themselves?

While I see such atrocities, I'll keep rejecting classical commentaries. :smile:
Last edited by rhinoceroshorn on Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 3275
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:58 amFor example, jf you read Vinaya you'll see they “allow” the ordination of bottom gay males, but not of bisexuals (half-time pandaka) What is the logic behind this?
It's even stranger than this. The pandaka named after oral sex (the Tibetan version of his name literally translates to "vagina-face") and the voyeur are permitted to ordain, but then Ven Buddhagosa will turn around and say two parts of the threefold training, samadhi and prajna, are impossible for them. So if they can only practice virtue, why are they ordained? It's a threefold training they are to be doing.

Here it is:
No kaṣina can be developed by any living being described as follows: "Beings hindered by kamma, by defilement, or by kamma-result, who lack faith, zeal, and understanding, will be incapable of entering into the certainty of rightness in profiteable states" (Vibh 341)

Herein, the words hindered by kamma refer to those who possess bad kamma entailing immediate effect on rebirth. By defilement: who have fixed wrong view or are hermaphrodites or eunuchs. By kamma-result: who have had a rebirth-linking with no profitable root-cause or with only two profitable root-causes. Lack faith: are destitute of faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṇgha. Zeal: are destitute of zeal for the unopposed way. Understanding: are destitute of mundane and supermundane right view. Will be incapable of entering into the certainty of rightness in profitable states means that they are incapable of entering into the noble path called "certainty" and "rightness in proper states."

And this does not apply only to kaṣinas; for none of them will succeed in developing any meditation subject at all. So the task of devotion to a meditation subject must be undertaken by a clansman who has no hindrance by kamma-result, who shuns hindrance by kamma and by defilement, and who fosters faith, zeal, and understanding by listening to the Dhamma, frequenting good men, and so on.
(Visuddhimagga 5.40–42, On the Threefold Training, Part II, Samādhi)
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
User avatar
rhinoceroshorn
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Who cares what this guy says? I'm sorry but I don't.
This and other things show how much commentarists pervert all the Canon. A simple thing like this one they turn into a controversy. :console:
Last edited by rhinoceroshorn on Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by salayatananirodha »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:15 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:07 am I doubt homophobia in Buddhism was a significant contributing factor in Dylan's death, whatever he died from, but certainly it is hard being a gay youth.
I didn't say that.
I meant, if you are gay, you want to ordain and you believe you can't because of your particular interpretation of the EBT (Dylan's case), this can be a real problem.
As I exemplified with myself: if I had no prospect of ordination I'd be very sad and without knowing what to do. I'd be lost since I see no stimulus to keep being a layman.
I saw Dylan here and on Facebook sometimes, but never really talked to him so I can't say for him, but I remember his friend salayatananirodha said this:
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:21 pm my mom depends on me financially
i have various unpaid debts
i may or may not be a paṇḍaka
not sure how well i could handle some of the practical concerns due to back surgery
See? One of the impediments for him to ordain is not knowing if he is classified as a pandaka or not.
Let's be honest, why the hell would the Buddha make people confused about themselves?

While I see such atrocities, I'll keep rejecting classical commentaries. :smile:
being possibly a paṇḍaka isn't the main reason, and none of those might be the actual reason i don't ordain. they could be just excuses i rely on. but based on my current interpretation of paṇḍaka (more like a feminized third gender) i would probably be eligible to ordain. i think it's valid for dylan to have believed that it *might* have plainly meant 'homosexual', even if i don't agree. i also admit to uncertainty.
i'm a hypersexual homosexual and if i neglected that fact ordaining i could end up getting myself defeated for life. there's nothing wrong with not being able to ordain, and we shouldn't be inserting political correctness into the vinaya. the buddha also set up rules for nuns that seem very sexist, but the saṅgha is operating in societies that are sexist, and they depend on them for requisites. he also said lesser rules could be abolished, but did he define what those were? at the end of the day, there is truth or not and it operates independently of perceptions, no? true, we have to surmise what is truth for ourselves but that is all the reason to be as extremely conservative to the original letter that we have and not to deviate without verifiable confidence. it's also like the rule about puncturing fruit with seeds and saying 'kappiyaṁ, bhante' because of what the jains believed. operating in open defiance of some traditions is inappropriate because it ruins the reputation of the saṅgha. just keep practicing dhamma and you will be happy, whatever role you take on; it's that simple
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5164
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Gay and Buddhism

Post by cappuccino »

lust is a force


you can direct it at anything


anything or nothing


merely try to have restraint
Post Reply