Monastics protesting social injustice

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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:51 pm
Mr Man wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:17 pm
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:59 pm

This is essentially the crux of the issue. The monk then gets mired in the worldly battles instead of striving to rise above them.
Bhante, The monk is a Maha Thera who has done a great deal for the Sasana. Do you feel his behaviour is inappropriate and if so on what grounds?
The title Maha Thera is not an indication of any kind of real wisdom in and of itself from my experience sadly, as the Buddha said you have to live with someone for a long time to see how they really are. That does not mean a monastic is not worthy of respect, but just because someone is a Maha Thera does not mean their actions should not be questioned. This is the case even in the Vinaya, where the junior monastic is expected to call out the senior monastic who is their preceptor/acariya and support them in stopping unskillful behavior.
Bhante the point about him being a Maha Thera is not that the indicates wisdom but that it indicates long-standing.

Has Bhante Sujato committed an offence against the monastic code in that video? Thanks.
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DooDoot
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Mr Man wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:13 pm Has Bhante Sujato committed an offence against the monastic code in that video? Thanks.
Not to lie. If a bhikkhu utters false speech whose nature he is aware of, he commits a pācittiya.

https://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/vinaya ... m#ch-----1
You appear to struggle with the definition of false speech, which includes:
He speaks falsehood. If he is summoned to a council, to an assembly, to his relatives’ presence, to his guild, or to the court, and questioned as a witness thus: ‘So, good man, tell what you know,’ then, not knowing, he says, ‘I know,’ or knowing, he says, ‘I do not know’; not seeing, he says, ‘I see,’ or seeing, he says, ‘I do not see.’ Thus he consciously speaks falsehood for his own ends, or for another’s ends, or for some trifling worldly end.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.211/en/bodhi
If he actually does know Trump actually raped women, it appears he must have psychic powers. To demonstrate psychic powers is also against the Vinaya.

In summary, twisting or inverting the definitions of "truth" & "lies" is not part of Buddhism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

Mr Man wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:13 pm
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:51 pm
Mr Man wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:17 pm

Bhante, The monk is a Maha Thera who has done a great deal for the Sasana. Do you feel his behaviour is inappropriate and if so on what grounds?
The title Maha Thera is not an indication of any kind of real wisdom in and of itself from my experience sadly, as the Buddha said you have to live with someone for a long time to see how they really are. That does not mean a monastic is not worthy of respect, but just because someone is a Maha Thera does not mean their actions should not be questioned. This is the case even in the Vinaya, where the junior monastic is expected to call out the senior monastic who is their preceptor/acariya and support them in stopping unskillful behavior.
Bhante the point about him being a Maha Thera is not that the indicates wisdom but that it indicates long-standing.

Has Bhante Sujato committed an offence against the monastic code in that video? Thanks.
Any videos about topics like that I do not watch, so I cannot say. I've not watched a Bhante Sujato video in a year or so, I've been watching Ajahn Brahmali's talks and videos these days.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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DooDoot
In summary, twisting or inverting the definitions of "truth" & "lies" is not part of Buddhism.
:goodpost:

It is good politics though.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:43 pm
Mr Man wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:13 pm
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:51 pm

The title Maha Thera is not an indication of any kind of real wisdom in and of itself from my experience sadly, as the Buddha said you have to live with someone for a long time to see how they really are. That does not mean a monastic is not worthy of respect, but just because someone is a Maha Thera does not mean their actions should not be questioned. This is the case even in the Vinaya, where the junior monastic is expected to call out the senior monastic who is their preceptor/acariya and support them in stopping unskillful behavior.
Bhante the point about him being a Maha Thera is not that the indicates wisdom but that it indicates long-standing.

Has Bhante Sujato committed an offence against the monastic code in that video? Thanks.
Any videos about topics like that I do not watch, so I cannot say. I've not watched a Bhante Sujato video in a year or so, I've been watching Ajahn Brahmali's talks and videos these days.
Okay, thank you Bhante.

Bhante Sujato has been wrongly accused, in my opinion, of advocating theft and of lying in this thread which is disappointing.

:anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Mr Man
Bhante Sujato has been wrongly accused, in my opinion, of advocating theft and of lying in this thread which is disappointing.
Socialism requires theft.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Mr Man wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:11 pm
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:43 pm
Mr Man wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:13 pm

Bhante the point about him being a Maha Thera is not that the indicates wisdom but that it indicates long-standing.

Has Bhante Sujato committed an offence against the monastic code in that video? Thanks.
Any videos about topics like that I do not watch, so I cannot say. I've not watched a Bhante Sujato video in a year or so, I've been watching Ajahn Brahmali's talks and videos these days.

Okay, thank you Bhante.

Bhante Sujato has been wrongly accused, in my opinion, of advocating theft and of lying in this thread which is disappointing.

:anjali:

Well... He was one of two monks who wrote articles arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts. I forget who the other was right now, but that was years ago when I was a lay person and I found his arguments lacking.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
Well... He was one of two monks who wrote articles arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts. I forget who the other was right now, but that was years ago when I was a lay person and I found his arguments lacking.
Absolutely shocking.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:38 pm
Mr Man wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:11 pm
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:43 pm

Any videos about topics like that I do not watch, so I cannot say. I've not watched a Bhante Sujato video in a year or so, I've been watching Ajahn Brahmali's talks and videos these days.

Okay, thank you Bhante.

Bhante Sujato has been wrongly accused, in my opinion, of advocating theft and of lying in this thread which is disappointing.

:anjali:

Well... He was one of two monks who wrote articles arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts. I forget who the other was right now, but that was years ago when I was a lay person and I found his arguments lacking.
Bhante, Do you mean in the article he wrote arguing that copyright "should never be applied to Buddhist scriptures"?

"Copy this" https://sujato.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/copy-this/

I don't think he is actually advocating for the illegal downloading of movies and music although he does say that "Copying is not taking" and does not breach the first precept, which I do not agree with.
Dan74
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:48 pm Dan74
There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support what the Bhikkhu is saying (apart from what was already mentioned, Trump's close friendship and frequent visits to Jeffrey Epstein).
I think the key word there is "circumstantial".

Whether or not he is correct to draw the conclusion he does, I think he is entitled to think so and feel that the case proven.
No one is entitled to slander.
The point is that we all, whether we like it or not, reach conclusions based on circumstantial evidence in the absence of an official verdict or a solid proof of some kind. One can argue against it, but that doesn't make it lying. That's a bridge too far.
Monks have a greater responsibility with their speech.

The Bhikkhu is the video makes a good point, though the picture he paints of progressives and conservatives is way too simplistic and only bears a slight resemblance to the real world, in my view. Yes, there are progressives who truly care about the welfare of all beings and consider this the principle cause of the progressive movement. And yes, there are conservatives whose modus operandi is each man for himself. They are the terms in which he sees the dichotomy, but in my experience, most of progressives are just as selfish as most of conservatives. Although I can understand how an Australian may think like that. Up until some years ago, richer people tended to vote for the more right-wing party in the hope of more tax cuts for themselves, while those who voted for the more left wing party, did so in the hope of a more equitable society. I think that was quite common in Australia up until maybe 20 years ago.

But now people support various movements for a variety of reasons.
I think the video was awful on a number of points. First he seems to think that progressives are full of self doubt. Any cursory encounter with an SJW would fix that wrong perception. The video also claimed that progressives are on the losing side of politics and the culture war. Once again, completely wrong. Progressives dominate in academia, the media, the workplace and, in the UK at least, in politics. If an employee voices support for progressive values he could be in for a promotion. If another employee voices support for conservative values they could find themselves without a job. He also strongly suggests that progressives are morally superior to those on the right. I disagree. I also find it ironic that a video about conceit and how progressives come off as too condescending was itself highly conceited and condescending.

Also, mandatory vegetarianism? :|
You say "Any cursory encounter with an SJW would fix that wrong perception." And this is the truth for you. Perhaps Bhikkhu Sujato's experience of SWJs does not match yours.

You say that in the UK, Progressives dominate in politics. This makes the Conservative Party progressive in your definition? Or do you mean something else by "dominate"? The workplace?? As if this is a monolith??

You make plenty of poorly evidenced assertions and yet, of course this passes below the radar while the Bhikkhu is responsible for all deadly sins and beyond.. You are seemingly unable, Craig, to countenance the possibility that the monk is a human being who deeply and sincerely cares about the world and its creatures and who, yes, like all of us, including your good self, has biases and sees matters wrongly, at times, and comes to false conclusions, as all sentients beings do.

Did you clutch your pearls as forcefully at Bhante Pannobhasa right-wing musings and consorting with Nazis? Why not examine your own biases, at least in this case, the work is likely to have beneficial results?

And isn't practice in general about turning that attentive beam back at ourselves rather than wasting energy being critical of socially engaged monks, whose politics you happen to disagree with?
_/|\_
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by binocular »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:08 pm DooDoot
In summary, twisting or inverting the definitions of "truth" & "lies" is not part of Buddhism.
:goodpost:

It is good politics though.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:11 pmSocialism requires theft.
Will the irony never end!!
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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binocular wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:41 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:08 pm DooDoot
In summary, twisting or inverting the definitions of "truth" & "lies" is not part of Buddhism.
:goodpost:

It is good politics though.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:11 pmSocialism requires theft.
Will the irony never end!!
Where is the lie?
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
binocular
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:47 amWhere is the lie?
Technically, having one's own, personally biased interpretation of a particular political philosophy etc. is not lying.

I find it bizarre, all the things you consider to be "socialist"; to you, it seems to be a catch-all term for everything you don't like.

But alas, we're getting :offtopic: , so :focus:
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:45 pm Bhikkhu_Jayasara
Well... He was one of two monks who wrote articles arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts. I forget who the other was right now, but that was years ago when I was a lay person and I found his arguments lacking.
Absolutely shocking.
Ceisiwr, if the article Bhikkhu Jayasara is refering to is this one "Copy this" https://sujato.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/copy-this/ it isn't really an article "arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts" is it?

How would you characterise Bhikkhu Jayasara's description of the article? Is it a falsehood or a misrepresentation?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

binocular
I find it bizarre, all the things you consider to be "socialist"; to you, it seems to be a catch-all term for everything you don't like.
Not at all. I don't think the Kardashians or celebrity culture is socialist ;)
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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