Monastics protesting social injustice

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:46 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:45 pm Bhikkhu_Jayasara
Well... He was one of two monks who wrote articles arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts. I forget who the other was right now, but that was years ago when I was a lay person and I found his arguments lacking.
Absolutely shocking.
Ceisiwr, if the article Bhikkhu Jayasara is refering to is this one "Copy this" https://sujato.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/copy-this/ it isn't really an article "arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts" is it?

How would you characterise Bhikkhu Jayasara's description of the article? Is it a falsehood or a misrepresentation?
Glancing the article that seems to be what Sujato is saying.
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:50 am
Mr Man wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:46 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:45 pm Bhikkhu_Jayasara



Absolutely shocking.
Ceisiwr, if the article Bhikkhu Jayasara is refering to is this one "Copy this" https://sujato.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/copy-this/ it isn't really an article "arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts" is it?

How would you characterise Bhikkhu Jayasara's description of the article? Is it a falsehood or a misrepresentation?
Glancing the article that seems to be what Sujato is saying.
That's not really what the article is "about" is it? Let's try and be honest.

If that is the article Bhikkhu Jayasara was referring to, it is very clearly a misrepresentation to describe it as an article "arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts" even if the issue of copying and the precepts is addressed.
BrokenBones
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

He seems to be arguing (in a very long winded and dubious way) that...
a) copyright is an imposed idea from a capitalist structure that tries making copyright infringement a 'theft', but doesn't really count as theft because the whole idea of copyright (according to Bhante Sujato) is wrong.
b) millions of people do it and there aren't that many bad people in the world so the law must be wrong.
c) theft is to deprive someone of something so copyright infringement is not theft in a Buddhist sense because nobody is deprived of anything (try telling that to a struggling artist who watches their creation tweaked by a superstar who goes on to make millions off another persons work).
d) translation can't be copyrighted because translators aren't really creating anything new so their work should be accessible to all.

It seems a very juvenile argument that he's putting forward to excuse theft or viewed in a very favourable light... merely breaking the laws of the land.

Metta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Dan74
You say "Any cursory encounter with an SJW would fix that wrong perception." And this is the truth for you. Perhaps Bhikkhu Sujato's experience of SWJs does not match yours.
Its a universal truth. A SJW is full of an absolute sense of being right, hence the totalitarianism.
You say that in the UK, Progressives dominate in politics. This makes the Conservative Party progressive in your definition? Or do you mean something else by "dominate"? The workplace?? As if this is a monolith??
Whilst I am a member of the Conservative Party it is barely right wing or conservative these days. For the most part it seems to be stacked full of economically centre-right but socially left liberal democrats. Since being in power the Tories have done nothing about our loathsome hate speech laws, nor the ever growing number of QUANGOs and middle managers in the civil service who's job is to endlessly promote the "Equality and Diversity" cult. Time and time again the Tories back down and are totally spineless when it comes to progressives.
You make plenty of poorly evidenced assertions and yet, of course this passes below the radar while the Bhikkhu is responsible for all deadly sins and beyond.. You are seemingly unable, Craig, to countenance the possibility that the monk is a human being who deeply and sincerely cares about the world and its creatures and who, yes, like all of us, including your good self, has biases and sees matters wrongly, at times, and comes to false conclusions, as all sentients beings do.


I don't doubt for a moment that he is a human being, nor do I think he is a terrible and immoral person. I do think he has adopted some wrong views and is too concerned with political activism than Dhamma. He also strikes me as a man who has joined a religion that he is embarrassed to be a member of, although these days i guess he can't be called a Theravadin anymore and is now an "EBT" monk.
Did you clutch your pearls as forcefully at Bhante Pannobhasa right-wing musings and consorting with Nazis? Why not examine your own biases, at least in this case, the work is likely to have beneficial results?
There is nothing wrong in having discussions with neo-nazis and the like. They are people after all. I myself have had some in depth conversations with some. Once you get past the vitriol they spew and actually talk to them you get to understand them better. In my experience most were heterosexual men who had felt hard done by by the economy and ignored by the state. Unlike socialists and communists who blame capitalism they blame X race, or X race and capitalism together. Essentially, men who have fallen on hard times who feel angry at their situation and feel ignored by the political class. I should note, i'm not defending their views here. I find nazism and the like to be extremely repellent.

With that being said, I have criticised Bhante Pannobhasa in the past.
And isn't practice in general about turning that attentive beam back at ourselves rather than wasting energy being critical of socially engaged monks, whose politics you happen to disagree with?
It is indeed. Still, if you thought a monk was publicly behaving inappropriately would you never say anything?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:00 pm He seems to be arguing (in a very long winded and dubious way) that...
a) copyright is an imposed idea from a capitalist structure that tries making copyright infringement a 'theft', but doesn't really count as theft because the whole idea of copyright (according to Bhante Sujato) is wrong.
b) millions of people do it and there aren't that many bad people in the world so the law must be wrong.
c) theft is to deprive someone of something so copyright infringement is not theft in a Buddhist sense because nobody is deprived of anything (try telling that to a struggling artist who watches their creation tweaked by a superstar who goes on to make millions off another persons work).
d) translation can't be copyrighted because translators aren't really creating anything new so their work should be accessible to all.

It seems a very juvenile argument that he's putting forward to excuse theft or viewed in a very favourable light... merely breaking the laws of the land.

Metta
But it isn't really an article about "arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts" is it? To characterise it as such would be a misrepresentation wouldn't it?

Where does the article excuse theft?
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

From the article...

'The first question, which can be dealt with swiftly, is whether copying is stealing under the Buddhist precepts. The answer is no. Stealing in Buddhism requires that the owner be deprived of something. Copying is not taking. You could argue that the creator is indirectly deprived of income, but that is irrelevant.'

Metta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:16 pm From the article...

'The first question, which can be dealt with swiftly, is whether copying is stealing under the Buddhist precepts. The answer is no. Stealing in Buddhism requires that the owner be deprived of something. Copying is not taking. You could argue that the creator is indirectly deprived of income, but that is irrelevant.'

Metta
Yes that is in the article but that is not what the article is about that is it? :shrug:

It is not an article "arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts". That "Copying is not taking" is a side point.

I believe you are being disingenuous.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Dan74 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:02 pm Dan74
You say "Any cursory encounter with an SJW would fix that wrong perception." And this is the truth for you. Perhaps Bhikkhu Sujato's experience of SWJs does not match yours.
Its a universal truth. A SJW is full of an absolute sense of being right, hence the totalitarianism.
It is only a universal truth, if you define a SJW to be someone who fits the qualities you ascribe to them, but in that case it becomes a tautology. Someone who fights for social justice maybe a person who is trying to help the newly arrived refugees in their community, for example, or oppose racism in their city by organising community festivals and celebrations of ethnic diversity. Rather than the armchair warriors you may tend to encounter on the internet, such people are doers and care about bettering their communities. Nothing whatsoever to do with totalitarianism or even any absolutes.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:02 pm
You say that in the UK, Progressives dominate in politics. This makes the Conservative Party progressive in your definition? Or do you mean something else by "dominate"? The workplace?? As if this is a monolith??
Whilst I am a member of the Conservative Party it is barely right wing or conservative these days. For the most part it seems to be stacked full of economically centre-right but socially left liberal democrats. Since being in power the Tories have done nothing about our loathsome hate speech laws, nor the ever growing number of QUANGOs and middle managers in the civil service who's job is to endlessly promote the "Equality and Diversity" cult. Time and time again the Tories back down and are totally spineless when it comes to progressives.
Perhaps you'd like to come up with some substantial examples, but it appears that the voters are invested in the values you might be decrying here, which is the reason the Conservative Govenrment doesn't "stand up to them". Like your "loathsome hate speech laws" which punish vilifying people on the basis of race, sexuality, nationality or religion, which seem the minimum decorum a diverse society requires to actually get along. A wiki page with selected cases does not list anything particularly loathsome, as silly as the sieg heil pug case may be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_spee ... ed_Kingdom
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:02 pm
You make plenty of poorly evidenced assertions and yet, of course this passes below the radar while the Bhikkhu is responsible for all deadly sins and beyond.. You are seemingly unable, Craig, to countenance the possibility that the monk is a human being who deeply and sincerely cares about the world and its creatures and who, yes, like all of us, including your good self, has biases and sees matters wrongly, at times, and comes to false conclusions, as all sentients beings do.


I don't doubt for a moment that he is a human being, nor do I think he is a terrible and immoral person. I do think he has adopted some wrong views and is too concerned with political activism than Dhamma. He also strikes me as a man who has joined a religion that he is embarrassed to be a member of, although these days i guess he can't be called a Theravadin anymore and is now an "EBT" monk.
I think all monks have views. Even our own Bhante Dhammanando has posted political stuff in the past and continues to do so on his FB. The difference I think is that Bhante Dhammanando's views align much more closely with yours, hence your lack of concern.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:02 pm
Did you clutch your pearls as forcefully at Bhante Pannobhasa right-wing musings and consorting with Nazis? Why not examine your own biases, at least in this case, the work is likely to have beneficial results?
There is nothing wrong in having discussions with neo-nazis and the like. They are people after all. I myself have had some in depth conversations with some. Once you get past the vitriol they spew and actually talk to them you get to understand them better. In my experience most were heterosexual men who had felt hard done by by the economy and ignored by the state. Unlike socialists and communists who blame capitalism they blame X race, or X race and capitalism together. Essentially, men who have fallen on hard times who feel angry at their situation and feel ignored by the political class. I should note, i'm not defending their views here. I find nazism and the like to be extremely repellent.

With that being said, I have criticised Bhante Pannobhasa in the past.
I think regardless of one's personal feelings of compassion, it is wrong to give a platform to someone who espouses the ideology that was both predicated upon and responsible for the worst war and genocide of the past 100 years.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:02 pm
And isn't practice in general about turning that attentive beam back at ourselves rather than wasting energy being critical of socially engaged monks, whose politics you happen to disagree with?
It is indeed. Still, if you thought a monk was publicly behaving inappropriately would you never say anything?
If the monk was behaving in a deeply immoral way and I had the evidence, yes, it would be my responsibility to make it public. But this is not the case. The most you can claim here is that Bhante Sujato has strong political convictions, displays bias and perhaps overstates his claims. I don't think this is behaving inappropriately. It is just stating views you disagree with.

As for the question of politics versus the Dhamma, it's a good one. I think we should take a careful look at how this plays out in ourselves and leave the Bhikkhus to their kamma.
_/|\_
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

Mr Man wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:40 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:16 pm From the article...

'The first question, which can be dealt with swiftly, is whether copying is stealing under the Buddhist precepts. The answer is no. Stealing in Buddhism requires that the owner be deprived of something. Copying is not taking. You could argue that the creator is indirectly deprived of income, but that is irrelevant.'

Metta
Yes that is in the article but that is not what the article is about that is it? :shrug:

It is not an article "arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts". That "Copying is not taking" is a side point.

I believe you are being disingenuous.
Please don't project or ascribe inner intentions or states of mind onto me.
'Copying is not taking' is something that Bhante Sujato states... it is not a side issue... it is a defence of theft and law breaking. Have you actually read the article and comments?

Metta
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:53 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:40 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:16 pm From the article...

'The first question, which can be dealt with swiftly, is whether copying is stealing under the Buddhist precepts. The answer is no. Stealing in Buddhism requires that the owner be deprived of something. Copying is not taking. You could argue that the creator is indirectly deprived of income, but that is irrelevant.'

Metta
Yes that is in the article but that is not what the article is about that is it? :shrug:

It is not an article "arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts". That "Copying is not taking" is a side point.

I believe you are being disingenuous.
Please don't project or ascribe inner intentions or states of mind onto me.
'Copying is not taking' is something that Bhante Sujato states... it is not a side issue... it is a defence of theft and law breaking. Have you actually read the article and comments?

Metta
I am telling you what I think. Is it incorrect?

If you were asked in an English exam to state what the article is about what would you say? I would say "The monk argues that he believes copyright is a bad idea". I would not say it is about "downloading movies and music( pirating)" not being a "breach of the precepts" although the monk's belief that copying is not against the precepts is mentioned.

Where does Bhante Sujato defend law breaking?

Yes I have read the article and the comments.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

Mr Man wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:03 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:53 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:40 pm

Yes that is in the article but that is not what the article is about that is it? :shrug:

It is not an article "arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts". That "Copying is not taking" is a side point.

I believe you are being disingenuous.
Please don't project or ascribe inner intentions or states of mind onto me.
'Copying is not taking' is something that Bhante Sujato states... it is not a side issue... it is a defence of theft and law breaking. Have you actually read the article and comments?

Metta
I am telling you what I think. Is it incorrect?

If you were asked in an English exam to state what the article is about what would you say? I would say "The monk argues that he believes copyright is a bad idea". I would not say it is about "downloading movies and music( pirating)" not being a "breach of the precepts" although that the monk believes copying not be against the precepts is mentioned.

Where does Bhante Sujato defend law breaking?

Yes I have read the article and the comments.
Mr Man... I would very much like to tell you what I think but I will adhere to the TOS as I wish you would.
As for the rest... I give up... I see no sense in trying to convince you of an evident truth that is backed up by the very article you posted.

Metta
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:14 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:03 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:53 pm

Please don't project or ascribe inner intentions or states of mind onto me.
'Copying is not taking' is something that Bhante Sujato states... it is not a side issue... it is a defence of theft and law breaking. Have you actually read the article and comments?

Metta
I am telling you what I think. Is it incorrect?

If you were asked in an English exam to state what the article is about what would you say? I would say "The monk argues that he believes copyright is a bad idea". I would not say it is about "downloading movies and music( pirating)" not being a "breach of the precepts" although that the monk believes copying not be against the precepts is mentioned.

Where does Bhante Sujato defend law breaking?

Yes I have read the article and the comments.
Mr Man... I would very much like to tell you what I think but I will adhere to the TOS as I wish you would.
As for the rest... I give up... I see no sense in trying to convince you of an evident truth that is backed up by the very article you posted.

Metta
Where does Bhante Sujato defend law breaking in that article? Are you misrepresenting the Bhikkhu?
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

Mr Man wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:58 am
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:38 pm
Mr Man wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:11 pm


Okay, thank you Bhante.

Bhante Sujato has been wrongly accused, in my opinion, of advocating theft and of lying in this thread which is disappointing.

:anjali:

Well... He was one of two monks who wrote articles arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts. I forget who the other was right now, but that was years ago when I was a lay person and I found his arguments lacking.
Bhante, Do you mean in the article he wrote arguing that copyright "should never be applied to Buddhist scriptures"?

"Copy this" https://sujato.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/copy-this/

I don't think he is actually advocating for the illegal downloading of movies and music although he does say that "Copying is not taking" and does not breach the first precept, which I do not agree with.
Nope that's not the one I mean, I agree with most of his thoughts on the suttas and Dhamma books not being behind a pay wall so to speak, which is why im grateful for his Nikaya translations, it is open for all as it should be, and I think all his books are also available at least by ebook/PDF for free, I plan to do likewise in the future.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:22 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:58 am
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:38 pm


Well... He was one of two monks who wrote articles arguing that downloading movies and music( pirating) was not a breach of the precepts. I forget who the other was right now, but that was years ago when I was a lay person and I found his arguments lacking.
Bhante, Do you mean in the article he wrote arguing that copyright "should never be applied to Buddhist scriptures"?

"Copy this" https://sujato.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/copy-this/

I don't think he is actually advocating for the illegal downloading of movies and music although he does say that "Copying is not taking" and does not breach the first precept, which I do not agree with.
Nope that's not the one I mean, I agree with most of his thoughts on the suttas and Dhamma books not being behind a pay wall so to speak, which is why im grateful for his Nikaya translations, it is open for all as it should be, and I think all his books are also available at least by ebook/PDF for free, I plan to do likewise in the future.

:D That's kind of funny.

Anyway thank you Bhante. And thank you for you endeavours in living the holy life in a positive and productive way and for creating opportunities for the laity.

:anjali:
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by binocular »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:02 pmStill, if you thought a monk was publicly behaving inappropriately would you never say anything?
To whom? In what media? You could say it to the monk directly, but what if he tells you to bugger off?

I'd love to see some Buddhist court where Buddhists take other Buddhists to court for not being good enough Buddhists. Where they actually have to respond to the charges.


I think the actual existence of such an institution could successfully minimize inter-Buddhist disputes. If a Buddhist knows he can easily be taken to court for his wrong (or whatever) views about Buddhism, that ought to tone things down, if for no other reason, then because of the potential for manipulation and abuse within the system of such a court.
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