Monastics protesting social injustice

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retrofuturist
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:51 am Expecting the monastics to do the careful investigation of the facts in these complex matters is expecting even more activist involvement from them.
Believe me, I neither want nor expect that. I'd rather them see for themselves the complete incompatibility of the monastic life outlined by the Buddha, and the activist life pushed by renegades in robes... since attempts to simultaneously live both lives typically bring about their downfall.

So, as they say, "pick one".

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Dan74 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:24 am Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:51 am Expecting the monastics to do the careful investigation of the facts in these complex matters is expecting even more activist involvement from them.
Believe me, I neither want nor expect that. I'd rather them see for themselves the complete incompatibility of the monastic life outlined by the Buddha, and the activist life pushed by renegades in robes... since attempts to simultaneously live both lives typically bring about their downfall.

So, as they say, "pick one".

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Renegades in robes" is very harsh, Paul.

Monastics are human beings, even our Forum colleague Ven Dhammanando makes political comments in FB. Would your view be different if the politics aligned with yours? What about if the politics formed less than 10% of their activity? Is that still an "activist life"?

For myself, I can imagine a highly cultivated monk (or nun) who do not differentiate - worldly or dhammic. They just do what needs doing, help where help is needed. The Buddha himself, got involved on a few occasions, as far as we know. Perhaps there were others.
_/|\_
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,

Throughout this topic, radical Marxist views rooted in identity, aversion and greed have been thoroughly refuted by sutta.

If you can find anything venerable Dhammanando says here or elsewhere that can be refuted by suttas, then bring it forward.

Otherwise, you are merely sullying his good name by mentioning him in the same breath as renegades in robes.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Dan74 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:45 am Greetings Dan,

Throughout this topic, radical Marxist views rooted in identity, aversion and greed have been thoroughly refuted by sutta.

If you can find anything venerable Dhammanando says here or elsewhere that can be refuted by suttas, then bring it forward.

Otherwise, you are merely sullying his good name by mentioning him in the same breath as renegades in robes.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Here you are laying emphasis on the content that you find disagreeable and judge to be adhammic. So it is not so much the holding and expressing views that you find objectionable for monastics, but the actual content of these views.

Personally, I am very happy for Ven Dhammanando to hold conservative views, just as I am happy for other Bhikkhus to hold liberal ones and find nothing adhammic in either.

That's because I don't see liberal or progressive views as necessarily promoting identity, aversion and greed, though individuals of course, may. Liberal and progressive views (just like conservative and other views) are worldly and stem from mundane positions, not from supramundane positions. But mundane positions, while provisional, can be useful. Refuting them with supramundane teachings risks missing their import, their purview. That's the most I've seen people do here with the sutta quotes.

Mr Man, I am sorry that I just went along with that assertion without checking it. Now that I google it, I see a statement of solidarity:

https://www.faithintowerhamlets.org/wp- ... 6/here.pdf

I think the statement is self-explanatory and I don't see anything that contradicts the Dhamma in it.
_/|\_
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by perkele »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:05 am Mr Man, I am sorry that I just went along with that assertion without checking it. Now that I google it, I see a statement of solidarity:

https://www.faithintowerhamlets.org/wp- ... 6/here.pdf

I think the statement is self-explanatory and I don't see anything that contradicts the Dhamma in it.
To me, this statement of solidarization, promoing a kind of "us vs. them" mentality, espeically from someone who by his personal life circumstances should actually neither belong into the "us" nor the "them" party being propped up here, seems quite contradictory to the Dhamma.

And yes, I think the Avaranna Sutta is very applicable.
Dan74 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:51 amI strongly suspect that the suttas you quoted refer to Dhammic matters - views and practices directly pertaining to the Dhamma and not worldly matters.
Do you think the Dhamma is something to be investigated and applied only in a sterile "unworldly" environment?
The sutta speaks of praise and blame, quite generally. Praise and blame are by their very nature very "worldly" matters. I think in some sutta they are classified under the "four worldly conditions" or something like that, including gain vs. loss and some other things that one living in the world is troubled by. I would say that the whole Dhamma is very much about worldly matters, and how to deal with them
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Dan74 »

perkele wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:09 am
Dan74 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:05 am Mr Man, I am sorry that I just went along with that assertion without checking it. Now that I google it, I see a statement of solidarity:

https://www.faithintowerhamlets.org/wp- ... 6/here.pdf

I think the statement is self-explanatory and I don't see anything that contradicts the Dhamma in it.
To me, this statement of solidarization, promoing a kind of "us vs. them" mentality, espeically from someone who by his personal life circumstances should actually neither belong into the "us" nor the "them" party being propped up here, seems quite contradictory to the Dhamma.
Where do you see the "us vs. them" mentality? I thought racism is precisely the "us vs. them" mentality and anti-racism is about ending such...

I agree with you and don't see the Dhamma as being only something to do with practice, but Buddha's instructions were usually tailored to the audience and embedded in a context. I somehow doubt that he would place a burden on the monks to thoroughly research every view they held. For instance, say that a king in a neighbouring kingdom had a reputation for being just and wise and the monk upheld him as an example in a Dhamma talk. Then it emerged that it was known to many denizens of that country that the king's reputation was undeserved and he was in fact, a tyrant. Is the monk now destined for hell, as the result of not researching and ascertaining the matter in an exhaustive fashion? Or is he blameless, if both his intent and the import of his example were correct and in line with the Dhamma, just the assumption about the king was not.

If retro or myself in years to come, change our mind about our political beliefs and regret them, it doesn't mean that we are destined for hell. Sentient beings are marked by delusions and we make mistakes.
_/|\_
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:18 pm Yes, yes. The other side are always the "real Nazis." Carry on, all.
Sometimes the other side really are totalitarian twits. In the modern age the greatest push for totalitarianism, at the very least in the west, comes from the "progressive" and woke crowd. A sort of fluffy authoritarianism hiding behind a painfully forced smile of friendliness. Needless to say, this is not something monks should be getting involved with.
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Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist
In contrast, since the Dhamma is timeless, such continual investigation and re-investigation is not required... nor the time commitment to doing and redoing it. Hence, why I think monastics with a penchant for "protesting social justice" should focus more on the Dhamma than worldly affairs, and hence my earlier question (now removed due to complaints about the presentation of evidence, pertinent to the application of the Avaṇṇāraha Sutta) about whether Ajahn Amaro still endorses Black Lives Matter, even now.
I have a lot of respect for Ajahn Amaro but its sad to see him still voicing support for the despicable BLM organisation. I do, however, wonder if he had much of a choice? Its very likely that a lot of the western converts (or even the secular faux Buddhists who attend) will be of a liberal persuasion. I know from my own experience that many of them are middle-class metropolitans and the monastery itself is in a rather leafy and wealthy area of the country, just outside of London. I can imagine that if he didn't sign on the dotted line there would have been a fair few complaints, if not a loss of attendees for retreats etc.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:15 pm I have a lot of respect for Ajahn Amaro but its sad to see him still voicing support for the despicable BLM organisation.
But he hasn't. Why do you spread untruths on a Buddhist forum.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:15 pm I have a lot of respect for Ajahn Amaro but its sad to see him still voicing support for the despicable BLM organisation.
But he hasn't. Why do you spread untruths on a Buddhist forum.
#BlackLivesMatter
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:45 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:15 pm I have a lot of respect for Ajahn Amaro but its sad to see him still voicing support for the despicable BLM organisation.
But he hasn't. Why do you spread untruths on a Buddhist forum.
#BlackLivesMatter
The phrase "Black Lives Matter" can refer to a Twitter hashtag, a slogan, a social movement, a political action committee,[22] or a loose confederation of groups advocating for racial justice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter

Ajahn Amaro has not voiced support for "BLM organisation". You are spreading untruths. Are you doing it intentionally? Do you think it is skilful?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man
Ajahn Amaro has not voiced support for "BLM organisation". You are spreading untruths. Are you doing it intentionally? Do you think it is skilful?
The use of #BlackLivesMatter is to give support to BLM™ :roll: They could have sent out a message of support to black people without the #. Obviously they wished to send a stronger message, a message of not only supporting black lives (as if there was some movement against black lives prior) but also to show solidarity with the movement.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

So he didn’t express support for the “BLM organisation”?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:43 pm So he didn’t express support for the “BLM organisation”?
He did by putting his name to a document that used the #
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:44 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:43 pm So he didn’t express support for the “BLM organisation”?
He did by putting his name to a document that used the #
Not for the “organisation”. The organisation is something different but I’m sure you must know that and are just being disingenuous.
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