Monastics protesting social injustice

[Mr Man]

Greetings Mr Man,

Cultural Marxist is your projection. Your perception. Based on your world view. It is a fiction. A conspiracy in your brain.

As advised earlier, unless you have watched the video, your sealioning and meta-discussion is premature.

Have you watched it, so you actually understand what this discussion is about?



Metta,
Paul.

Does the video mention "Cultural Marxism"?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Does the video mention "Cultural Marxism"?

You may know if you watched it.

You are going in circles with your disruptive sealioning. As you have already been advised, the monk confesses to being "woke", ergo Cultural Marxist.

If you prefer other words, read them in place of the words provided rather than disrupt the conversation. A detailed description of the usage of terms was provided earlier to Dhamma Chameleon, who, unlike you, was not sealioning or partaking in disruptive meta-discussion.

Once more...



Metta,
Paul.

[Mr Man]

In that video he said we have to take money away from billionaires.

Yes but he did not advocate theft. Is it really that difficult?

The idea that he advocates theft and precept breaking comes from you.

Forcibly taking money from Mr Smith and his family because you think it is better spent over here or Y person needs it more is unfair taxation and theft.

No it isn't. Just by saying something does not make it true.

In law tax is not theft. And as far as I know there is nothing in the Buddha's teaching that says tax is theft.

[Dhamma Chameleon]

To be honest I agree with a lot of what Mr Man is saying. I wonder if I'm being too diplomatic or cowardly in my intention not to try change anyone's mind, only to understand. I am grateful some people do try.

[Ceisiwr]

Yes but he did not advocate theft. Is it really that difficult?

The idea that he advocates theft and precept breaking comes from you.

Forcibly taking money from Mr Smith and his family because you think it is better spent over here or Y person needs it more is unfair taxation and theft.

No it isn't. Just by saying something does not make it true.

In law tax is not theft. And as far as I know there is nothing in the Buddha's teaching that says tax is theft.

Something being legal does not mean it’s in line with the Dhamma. Slavery used to be legal. That is not in line with the Dhamma. Taking property and wealth off others is theft. It matches the criteria for theft in the Dhamma as per the Vibhanga. General taxation is not. Tax also has to be fair. In the U.K. we used to have a top rate of income tax of 90%. That is not fair.

[Mr Man]

Forcibly taking money from Mr Smith and his family because you think it is better spent over here or Y person needs it more is unfair taxation and theft.

No it isn't. Just by saying something does not make it true.

In law tax is not theft. And as far as I know there is nothing in the Buddha's teaching that says tax is theft.

Taking property and wealth off others is theft. It matches the criteria for theft in the Dhamma as per the Vibhanga.

Do you have a link to where Tax matches the criteria for theft in the Vibhanga?

[Ceisiwr]

Not taxes, wealth “tax”.

(1) an article belonging to another legally and blamelessly

(2) the perception of it as belonging to another

(3) the thought or intention of stealing

(4) the activity of taking the article

(5) the actual appropriation of the article.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el282.html

(1) an article belonging to another legally and blamelessly (the billionaires wealth)

(2) the perception of it as belonging to another (Mr Smith owns it)

(3) the thought or intention of stealing (I want to take it from Mr Smith without his permission)

(4) the activity of taking the article (the state takes the property)

(5) the actual appropriation of the article (the state owns the property and gives it to Mr Y who is poor, or spends it on Z pet project)

[retrofuturist]

Greetings DC,

To be honest I agree with a lot of what Mr Man is saying. I wonder if I'm being too diplomatic or cowardly in my intention not to try change anyone's mind, only to understand. I am grateful some people do try.

I forget the exact wording used in the suttas, but as the Buddha said when inviting another to speak, explain it as it appears to you.

Metta,
Paul.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Ceisiwr & Mr Man,

Please advise if your ongoing side-bar discussion on whether taxation can constitute theft is going to get back to Bhikkhu Sujato's words any time soon, as that's the only basis upon which it's on topic.

Alternatively, we could split the topic out and you can go at it?

Please advise.



Metta,
Paul.

[Ceisiwr]

Greetings Ceisiwr & Mr Man,

Please advise if your ongoing side-bar discussion on whether taxation can constitute theft is going to get back to Bhikkhu Sujato's words any time soon, as that's the only basis upon which it's on topic.

Alternatively, we could split the topic out and you can go at it?

Please advise.



Metta,
Paul.

To get back to the OP we wouldn’t have to discuss if the Venerable advocated for theft or not if he had simply stuck to teaching Dhamma instead of left wing politics.

[Dhamma Chameleon]

I forget the exact wording used in the suttas, but as the Buddha said when inviting another to speak, explain it as it appears to you.

Metta,
Paul.

I believe that this is what I have been doing - and only that. I have expressed my understanding of the dhamma and sought clarification on others' understanding, without entering any debate. My experience is that it is not fruitful to try change people's minds and this thread confirms that. Has anyone changed their position? Even so, I find others brave for attempting it and then reflect on whether it means I am being cowardly.

[Mr Man]

Not taxes, wealth “tax”.

(1) an article belonging to another legally and blamelessly

(2) the perception of it as belonging to another

(3) the thought or intention of stealing

(4) the activity of taking the article

(5) the actual appropriation of the article.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el282.html

(1) an article belonging to another legally and blamelessly (the billionaires wealth)

(2) the perception of it as belonging to another (Mr Smith owns it)

(3) the thought or intention of stealing (I want to take it from Mr Smith without his permission)

(4) the activity of taking the article (the state takes the property)

(5) the actual appropriation of the article (the state owns the property and gives it to Mr Y who is poor, or spends it on Z pet project)

I don't see it.

I think you would do well to consult with a learned bhikkhu to see if your interpretation is correct - that a lawfully imposed tax can be considered theft.

[Mr Man]

Greetings Ceisiwr & Mr Man,

Please advise if your ongoing side-bar discussion on whether taxation can constitute theft is going to get back to Bhikkhu Sujato's words any time soon, as that's the only basis upon which it's on topic.

Alternatively, we could split the topic out and you can go at it?

Please advise.



Metta,
Paul.

Perhaps it should be split but that might be a bit of work. We can leave it or perhaps a monastic could give an opinion.

[Mr Man]

To be honest I agree with a lot of what Mr Man is saying. I wonder if I'm being too diplomatic or cowardly in my intention not to try change anyone's mind, only to understand. I am grateful some people do try.

Thank you. It is nice to hear that you agree with some of what I say.

[Ceisiwr]

Not taxes, wealth “tax”.

(1) an article belonging to another legally and blamelessly

(2) the perception of it as belonging to another

(3) the thought or intention of stealing

(4) the activity of taking the article

(5) the actual appropriation of the article.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el282.html

(1) an article belonging to another legally and blamelessly (the billionaires wealth)

(2) the perception of it as belonging to another (Mr Smith owns it)

(3) the thought or intention of stealing (I want to take it from Mr Smith without his permission)

(4) the activity of taking the article (the state takes the property)

(5) the actual appropriation of the article (the state owns the property and gives it to Mr Y who is poor, or spends it on Z pet project)

I don't see it.

I think you would do well to consult with a learned bhikkhu to see if your interpretation is correct - that a lawfully imposed tax can be considered theft.

I wonder if you would have seen the Soviet confiscation of wealth as theft.