Monastics protesting social injustice

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man
Not for the “organisation”. The organisation is something different but I’m sure you must know that and are just being disingenuous.
The problem I'm having is that #BlackLivesMatter is used by the organisation BLM. To tweet support for #BlackLivesMatter is to, either directly or indirectly, tweet support for that ghastly organisation. Its not simply a tweet relating to valuing black lives. It goes further than that.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Who we are.


Black Lives Matter UK (BLMUK) is a coalition of black activists and organisers across the UK. We’ve been organising since 2016 for justice in our communities.


We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.
https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

Since socialism requires theft and violence no Buddhist should be supporting these people. They also called for the abolition, not the defunding, of the police before they edited their page.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:58 pm Mr Man
Not for the “organisation”. The organisation is something different but I’m sure you must know that and are just being disingenuous.
The problem I'm having is that #BlackLivesMatter is used by the organisation BLM. To tweet support for #BlackLivesMatter is to, either directly or indirectly, tweet support for that ghastly organisation.
No it isn't.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:58 pm Its not simply a tweet relating to valuing black lives. It goes further than that.
As Dan said the statement is "self-explanatory" The # is used to show solidarity with the cause not with any particular organisation.

https://www.faithintowerhamlets.org/wp- ... 6/here.pdf

For some reason some would like to read more into it "Burn the witches"
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man
No it isn't.
The # is used by the organisation. Its almost entirely used to refer to the organisation. If they wanted to tweet support for black people they could have without using the slogan of a bunch of communists.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:20 pm Mr Man
No it isn't.
The # is used by the organisation. Its almost entirely used to refer to the organisation.
No it isn't. Do you think the Premier League were referring to the organisation or the cause?


If they wanted to tweet support for black people they could have without using the slogan of a bunch of communists.
The statement was a statement of solidarity "We stand shoulder to shoulder with the black population of the UK, and the USA, in affirming
that Black Lives Matter." Not a statement saying we support a particular organisation. I can't understand why you want it to be so.

Was it even put out as a tweet?
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SDC
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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So absolute crazy story that is definitely not made up:

About 15 years ago I was on cruise in the north Pacific. It was late October and the wind whipping off the sea was biting. Waters were rough for the first three days, but on the fourth day things really started to get scary. The seas were so rough that morning that people were not allowed in the dining room - food had to served individually to each cabin. Then the worst happened. One of the rear engines exploded and ruptured the main hull. The ship began to take on water, but due to multiple failures in the ship's electrical system, no discharge pumps were working, and the ship began to sink. It was pretty scary. We were instructed to follow the safety procedure we practiced upon boarding, and in no time we were all lined up to board life boats and abandon the vessel. While waiting on deck, the situation got very serious. It was mayhem. Children were screaming. Waves were crashing. The sound of the alarms was so loud, I still hear them today. And as the boat began to tilt more and more, people began to really lose control. Just about then, a gentleman close by, who was embracing a distraught female companion, took notice of some of the vintage-looking deck furniture, which he considered out of place on what was a very modern ship. I heard him draw particular attention to the fact that wooden deck chairs on ships built after 1970 was like putting rims on carriage wheels - a garbage analogy, but I understood what he meant and I absolutely disagreed with his assessment. It is abundantly clear to anyone who has any knowledge of cruise ship decor, that wooden chairs would be acceptable with any design up until the early 1990's, and I cited for him, right then, about several examples, including a very famous design by Meyer Werft from 1992 (purchased by Carnival Cruise lines), which had stunning wooden deck furniture that not only complimented the look of the design, but also brought a very refreshing sense of nostalgia that had been lost in certain design elements that had mild popularity from the 50's thru the early 70's. Just then, the alarm began to blare a different alarm, followed by an announcement indicating that our vessel had reached a critical point and that all remaining passengers should seek immediate evacuation from the ship. I'll never forget the screams. Just then, the gentleman had the nerve to suggest I was uniformed about the history of cruise ship decor, and the decline of the use of wood furniture on decks due to the difficult upkeep. Now although this was true, it had nothing to do with the point I was arguing, which was that classic wood pieces matched design elements and were perfectly acceptable on the ship we were on. I didn't say anything about trending away due to the high cost of upkeep. He was so belligerent at that point that I began to lose my cool. The argument got very heated, and ultimately we couldn't settle our differences and both died of drowning because we never got to a life boat..........

:|

And that is why monastics shouldn't emphasize worldly causes over the pursuit of the Path, which could inadvertently cause a person to die being concerned about the condition of a world that is always sinking and death is sure.

:tongue:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Greetings Mr.Man,
Mr Man wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:44 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:43 pm So he didn’t express support for the “BLM organisation”?
He did by putting his name to a document that used the #
Not for the “organisation”. The organisation is something different but I’m sure you must know that and are just being disingenuous.
As was pointed out to you, when you first brought forward the statement bearing his name, the words "Black", "Lives" and "Matter" were capitalised... thus what was referred to what clearly a proper noun, removing any ambiguity that it may possibly have been a reference to a truism that black lives matter, as an extension of the Buddhist principle that all sentient lives matter.

You running interference for Ajahn Amaro is doing nobody any favours. I just want to know if he still endorses Black Lives Matter... it's a fair, on-topic question, regardless of your sealioning, since his name appears on that earlier document.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Coëmgenu »

Can we reasonably expect Venerable Amaro to know whether or not he ought to capitalize the letters in the hashtag to specifically refer to the organization rather than the message or vice-versa? I barely even know how hashtags work, and I'm 28. I would have had no clue that capitalizing the individual words would have a particular meaning or not.
If you see a river, pray that beings gain entrance into the stream and into the ocean of wisdom. If you see a reservoir, pray that beings swiftly taste the one taste of the Dharma. If you see a pond, pray that beings become great in locution and skillful in preaching. If you see a well, pray that beings draw deep from the well of reason to disclose all dharmas. If you see a spring, pray that beings have inexhaustible roots of virtue. If you see a bridge, pray that beings carry all across to safety, as via a bridge. If you see a waterfall, pray that all beings cleanse the stains of delusion.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:36 pm Can we reasonably expect Venerable Amaro to know whether or not he ought to capitalize the letters in the hashtag to specifically refer to the organization rather than the message or vice-versa?
We can expect a grown man, who has grown up with the English language to differentiate between that which is a proper noun and that which is not.

Hasbro, the makers of Scrabble, believe an 8 year old can know it.

Now that said, the last two pages have a lot of content which is not connected to the topic of "Monastics protesting social injustice". It will be temporarily closed for a clean up, after which it will be re-opened - possibly here, or possibly in Hot Topics to prevent that happening again.

In the meantime, remember you can discuss such matters more broadly at Dharma Wheel Engaged.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

OK, posts insufficiently connected to the topic of "Monastics protesting social injustice" have been removed.

My preference would be to keep this topic here in "Ordination and Monastic Life", but for the meantime, it's going to have to be relocated to "Hot Topics" because we're currently low on moderator capacity and I don't want this getting out of control again. I predict we'll move it back to "Ordination and Monastic Life" in approximately a month's time.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:32 pm You running interference for Ajahn Amaro is doing nobody any favours. I just want to know if he still endorses Black Lives Matter... it's a fair, on-topic question, regardless of your sealioning, since his name appears on that earlier document.
Why don't you ask him then?

Personally, I'm pleased with what he has said in various talks. Your opinion obviously varies, and of course you're entitled to it, as the rest of us are of ours.

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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:14 pm Why don't you ask him then?
Because I neither want to encourage such political endorsement and activism from monks, nor do I want to put him in a position where he feels any compulsion to rationalize his earlier endorsement.

However, someone who may know him, who might share similar interests, or who might simply be closer to his particular lineage or vihara etc. might just already know, as it might be common knowledge in those circles. Until such time, without evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that he still supports Black Lives Matter.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by zerotime »

Dan74 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:33 pm Yes, the issue is whether monks should involve themselves in these matters, not the merits of particular causes. From all that I've seen, monks who involve themselves in social justice, believe their causes to be just and noble, believe the facts to be on their side and the merit of this belief is somewhat outside this topic, I think.

Whether monks should support conservative causes like our own Bhante Dhammanando who posts about such matters on FB, or Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu, who aligns himself with the far-right and consorts with neo-Nazis, or indeed the monks mentioned here, who align with liberal and progressive causes, it is basically the same issue - should they involve themselves in politics, social justice or other "worldly" issues?

The merits of the said causes is a separate matter, I think. I think it is safe to assume that the monastics in question believe that their specific affiliations to be the right ones and in line with the Dhamma. I don't doubt their sincerity. In all the aforementioned cases, there is no indication that the intention is to deceive or to cause harm, rather the opposite. So the relevant Vinaya rules don't apply. But the question may still be discussed on other grounds.
monks are human beings like the rest. Truth is there is no possibility for social justice in the world because this world we are experiencing is according our kamma. If we had a better kamma we would be experiencing a better world instead this slaughterhouse ruled with lies.

What the good exist in us manifest a non-acceptance in front this world with pain and atrocities of all sorts. However, what happens is out of control and lacks of any error despite we don't believe it.

At some point this dukkha should be turn to our inner domain, the only one in where the change is possible:

"When embraced, the rod of violence breeds danger & fear: Look at people quarreling. I will tell of how I experienced dismay. Seeing people floundering like fish in small puddles, competing with one another — as I saw this, fear came into me. The world was entirely without substance. All the directions were knocked out of line. Wanting a haven for myself, I saw nothing that wasn't laid claim to. Seeing nothing in the end but competition, I felt discontent. And then I saw an arrow here, so very hard to see, embedded in the heart. Overcome by this arrow you run in all directions. But simply on pulling it out you don't run, you don't sink."

- Sn 4.15
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by zerotime on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by binocular »

SDC wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:27 pm So absolute crazy story that is definitely not made up:

About 15 years ago I was on cruise in the north Pacific.
/.../
The argument got very heated, and ultimately we couldn't settle our differences and both died of drowning because we never got to a life boat..........
/.../
And that is why monastics shouldn't emphasize worldly causes over the pursuit of the Path, which could inadvertently cause a person to die being concerned about the condition of a world that is always sinking and death is sure.
How is taking for granted that "what Buddhism teaches" is true going to save anyone from suffering or help in the process?

It doesn't. It just makes for heated arguments. While teeth are rotting and ships are sinking. Pretending that there is a solution doesn't create a solution, even if the pretense can seem very effective, and as if it weren't a pretense at all.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:32 pm Greetings Mr.Man,
Mr Man wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:44 pm

He did by putting his name to a document that used the #
Not for the “organisation”. The organisation is something different but I’m sure you must know that and are just being disingenuous.
As was pointed out to you, when you first brought forward the statement bearing his name, the words "Black", "Lives" and "Matter" were capitalised... thus what was referred to what clearly a proper noun, removing any ambiguity that it may possibly have been a reference to a truism that black lives matter, as an extension of the Buddhist principle that all sentient lives matter.
Black Lives Matter with capital letters expresses solidarity with a cause not an organisation.

It is not the mark of a particular organisation. Investigate and see.

Really it isn't that difficult

Unless, of course, you want it to be. It's almost as if there is the desire to smear certain Bhikkhus, which is odd behaviour for a lay follower, in my opinion.

If your question is does Ajahn Amaro endorse a particular organisation called "Black Lives Matter" and all the associated views of that organisation, you would have to ask him but I do not believe he has done so publicly.
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