Monastics protesting social injustice

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floatsy1
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by floatsy1 »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:49 am
binocular wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:15 am One thing I've learned among Buddhists is that expecting anything from Buddhists, esp. from monks, is too much. Even just expecting common decency or common courtesy is too much.
There's an open invitation to meet whichever monk (Ahimsako or Sucitto, normally) hosts the online Cittaviveka lay forum. A talk followed by Q&A. I'm pretty sure you will receive uncommon decency and uncommon courtesy. The time difference between Slovenia and the UK can't be too different. Sunday afternoons. Let me know and I'll arrange the Zoom password for you.
Hello Sam

Can you please share the details with me please? I would love to attend any and all lay person forums :thumbsup:
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Sam Vara
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Sam Vara »

floatsy1 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:56 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:49 am
binocular wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:15 am One thing I've learned among Buddhists is that expecting anything from Buddhists, esp. from monks, is too much. Even just expecting common decency or common courtesy is too much.
There's an open invitation to meet whichever monk (Ahimsako or Sucitto, normally) hosts the online Cittaviveka lay forum. A talk followed by Q&A. I'm pretty sure you will receive uncommon decency and uncommon courtesy. The time difference between Slovenia and the UK can't be too different. Sunday afternoons. Let me know and I'll arrange the Zoom password for you.
Hello Sam

Can you please share the details with me please? I would love to attend any and all lay person forums :thumbsup:
Please see the PM which I have just sent you. :anjali: :heart:
floatsy1
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by floatsy1 »

Thank you again, so much, Sam Vara! Anjali. :anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Thoughts? Should Buddhists support Anarchism?

“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped"

MN 86
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:09 pm Thoughts? Should Buddhists support Anarchism?

https://youtu.be/jwFOZX813iw
Ven Sujato also believes the samgha itself to be structured around the principles of what is now called anarchism. Another question might be, "Is the samgha anarchic in social organization?" Also this begs the larger question, and I apologize to moderators for having to approve this twice as it is an edit, "Is the aryasamgha anarchic in social organization?"

"Anarchism" is a very loose and vague term. There are anarchist socialists and anarchist libertarians.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:09 pm Thoughts? Should Buddhists support Anarchism?

https://youtu.be/jwFOZX813iw
Ven Sujato also believes the samgha itself to be structured around the principles of what is now called anarchism. Another question might be, "Is the samgha anarchic in social organization?" Also this begs the larger question, and I apologize to moderators for having to approve this twice as it is an edit, "Is the aryasamgha anarchic in social organization?"

"Anarchism" is a very loose and vague term. There are anarchist socialists and anarchist libertarians.
Indeed but there is a world of difference between a religious organisation and the state/society at large. Generally I had in mine left anarchism but anarchism in general can obviously be discussed. Personally I’m not a fan of left or right anarchism.
“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped"

MN 86
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mikenz66
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:09 pm Thoughts? Should Buddhists support Anarchism?
Nice to see that talk finally posted... :clap:

Clearly there is an argument that the Sangha is not hierarchical, and some of those ideas actually work quite well in the workplace too.

As for society in general, the whole point about society is cooperation. Many discussions seem to lose sight of that, and mistake the means of cooperation ("capitalism", "socialism", "anarchism") for the important thing (the cooperation itself).

[Unless, of course, the cooperation is coerced, by Kings, Corporations, Despots, etc. ...]

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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mikenz66 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:32 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:09 pm Thoughts? Should Buddhists support Anarchism?
Nice to see that talk finally posted... :clap:

Clearly there is an argument that the Sangha is not hierarchical, and some of those ideas actually work quite well in the workplace too.

As for society in general, the whole point about society is cooperation. Many discussions seem to lose sight of that, and mistake the means of cooperation ("capitalism", "socialism", "anarchism") for the important thing (the cooperation itself).

[Unless, of course, the cooperation is coerced, by Kings, Corporations, Despots, etc. ...]

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Mike
You didn’t address anarchism, be it left or right, in your post. To put it another way, should the state be completely abolished?
“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped"

MN 86
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:32 am Nice to see that talk finally posted...
I was critiquing the talk but the rhetoric became unbearable. Truly, I started to feel ill and had to turn the video off. :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by DNS »

Like most utopian political ideas, they sound good, but don't work. It might work on a very small scale; a commune, a sangha, a small town, perhaps a small city, but not a large nation like the U.S. of some 340 million people.

Of course cooperation is good, but the larger the organization, the less likely that is going to occur on a regular basis.

It would definitely work with a noble sangha, as there would be no ill-will or anger in any of the participants, but a large nation of puthujjanas?; no way.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:11 am You didn’t address anarchism, be it left or right, in your post. To put it another way, should the state be completely abolished?
I thought I did. There are different possible ways of organising societies. If they lead to cooperation, happiness, etc of the people in the society, they are useful.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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mikenz66 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:55 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:11 am You didn’t address anarchism, be it left or right, in your post. To put it another way, should the state be completely abolished?
I thought I did. There are different possible ways of organising societies. If they lead to cooperation, happiness, etc of the people in the society, they are useful.
But is anarchism actually workable? You seem to suggest that it is. Do you think so just on small scale, so local communes, or a nationwide or even global scale? Can we have a functioning human society without any state whatsoever? Is anarchism what the Dhamma suggests we should support?
“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped"

MN 86
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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DNS wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:50 am Like most utopian political ideas, they sound good, but don't work. It might work on a very small scale; a commune, a sangha, a small town, perhaps a small city, but not a large nation like the U.S. of some 340 million people.

Of course cooperation is good, but the larger the organization, the less likely that is going to occur on a regular basis.

It would definitely work with a noble sangha, as there would be no ill-will or anger in any of the participants, but a large nation of puthujjanas?; no way.
I agree. Voluntarily small scale anarchist communes could work, although even there I have reservations, but when it comes to large scale I just don’t see it.
“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped"

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mikenz66
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by mikenz66 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:27 am
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:55 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:11 am You didn’t address anarchism, be it left or right, in your post. To put it another way, should the state be completely abolished?
I thought I did. There are different possible ways of organising societies. If they lead to cooperation, happiness, etc of the people in the society, they are useful.
But is anarchism actually workable? You seem to suggest that it is. Do you think so just on small scale, so local communes, or a nationwide or even global scale? Can we have a functioning human society without any state whatsoever? Is anarchism what the Dhamma suggests we should support?
I'm more interested in organisations that I know about. Bhikkhu Sujato describes the shortcomings of a consensus model at Santi here:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/bh ... t/18135/14
and I have experience with academic management, which used to be very much consensus, with rotating Heads of Departments, but, as he describes, when people behave foolishly one has to actually do something to put a stop to it.

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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

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Greetings,

As for the renegades in robes at the Empty Cloud Monastery in the United States, the Buddha warned us of them...
AN 5.80 wrote:"Monks, these five future dangers, unarisen at present, will arise in the future. Be alert to them and, being alert, work to get rid of them. Which five?

"There will be, in the course of the future, monks desirous of fine robes. They, desirous of fine robes, will neglect the practice of wearing cast-off cloth; will neglect isolated forest and wilderness dwellings; will move to towns, cities, and royal capitals, taking up residence there. For the sake of a robe they will do many kinds of unseemly, inappropriate things.

"This, monks, is the first future danger, unarisen at present, that will arise in the future. Be alert to it and, being alert, work to get rid of it.

"Furthermore, in the course of the future there will be monks desirous of fine food. They, desirous of fine food, will neglect the practice of going for alms; will neglect isolated forest and wilderness dwellings; will move to towns, cities, and royal capitals, taking up residence there and searching out the tip-top tastes with the tip of the tongue. For the sake of food they will do many kinds of unseemly, inappropriate things.

"This, monks, is the second future danger, unarisen at present, that will arise in the future. Be alert to it and, being alert, work to get rid of it.

"Furthermore, in the course of the future there will be monks desirous of fine lodgings. They, desirous of fine lodgings, will neglect the practice of living in the wilds; will neglect isolated forest and wilderness dwellings; will move to towns, cities, and royal capitals, taking up residence there. For the sake of lodgings they will do many kinds of unseemly, inappropriate things.

"This, monks, is the third future danger, unarisen at present, that will arise in the future. Be alert to it and, being alert, work to get rid of it.

"Furthermore, in the course of the future there will be monks who will live in close association with nuns, female probationers, and female novices. As they interact with nuns, female probationers, and female novices, they can be expected either to lead the holy life dissatisfied or to fall into one of the grosser offenses, leaving the training, returning to a lower way of life.


"This, monks, is the fourth future danger, unarisen at present, that will arise in the future. Be alert to it and, being alert, work to get rid of it.

"Furthermore, in the course of the future there will be monks who will live in close association with monastery attendants and novices. As they interact with monastery attendants and novices, they can be expected to live intent on storing up all kinds of possessions and to stake out crops and fields.

"This, monks, is the fifth future danger, unarisen at present, that will arise in the future. Be alert to it and, being alert, work to get rid of it.

"These, monks, are the five future dangers, unarisen at present, that will arise in the future. Be alert to them and, being alert, work to get rid of them."
Meanwhile in the United Kingdom...

Someone recently sent me this blog entry from Ajahn Sucitto - http://sucitto.blogspot.com/2021/01/sac ... s.html?m=1

In it he rightly draws attention to how "dark networks, corrupt leaders and their slogan-slinging agents" have taken the place of the yakkhas, demons and ghouls found in the suttas. "Nowadays political slogans... become mantras that repeated time and time again evoke paranoia, division and violence. Thus the dark Cosmos arises."

What I found interesting is how the actual slogans he uses to illustrate this "dark Cosmos" are "Take back control" - the slogan of the Brexit Party; and "Stop the Steal".

I would have thought that "BLM" might merit a mention, and - precepts and all that - "A Woman's Right to Choose".

Sucitto has now become so woke, so quickly. He used to restrict himself to Dhamma. I wonder what is going on. I hope it's not connected to one of the formerly unarisen future dangers specified above (i.e. saying things that please lay followers for reasons other than guiding them on the path of Dhamma)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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