Are women evil?

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DooDoot
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by DooDoot »

urocentrum wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:15 pm Are there any Buddhist texts which specifically address ... women?
Mātugāmasaṁyutta
Linked Discourses on Females
Mātugāmasaṁyutta
SN 37
The “Linked Discourses on Females” contains 34 discourses regarding various qualities of women. Note that the Pali texts use two distinct terms for women, itthī and mātugāma, the latter of which can be translated as “females”. These texts deal with such themes as the kinds of suffering unique to women, why women are reborn in various states, or the qualities that lead to a woman taking charge in her marriage.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by TRobinson465 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:52 am
urocentrum wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:15 pm Are there any Buddhist texts which specifically address ... women?
Mātugāmasaṁyutta
Linked Discourses on Females
Mātugāmasaṁyutta
SN 37
The “Linked Discourses on Females” contains 34 discourses regarding various qualities of women. Note that the Pali texts use two distinct terms for women, itthī and mātugāma, the latter of which can be translated as “females”. These texts deal with such themes as the kinds of suffering unique to women, why women are reborn in various states, or the qualities that lead to a woman taking charge in her marriage.
Yeah these are probably as close as you'll get to the OPs question.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by Mr Albatross »

urocentrum wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:15 pm Are there any Buddhist texts which specifically address the wickedness of women?
Great question, urocentrum! You ask about an aspect of the Blessed One's Dhamma that is far too little preached in this wanton and feminized age.

I would say that it is in the Kunala Jātaka that we have the most comprehensive and insightful exposure of the wickedness of women. Here I will give just a few examples. Hopefully they will motivate you and others to read the Jātaka in its entirety.

Women's forty ways of enticing a man.
Verily, friend Punnamukha, in forty different ways a woman makes up to a man . She draws herself up, she bends down, she frisks about, she looks coy, she presses together her finger tips, she plants one foot on the other, she scratches the ground with a stick, she dances her boy up and down, she plays and makes the boy play, she kisses and makes him kiss her, she eats and gives him to eat, she either gives or begs something, whatever is done she mimics, she speaks in a high or low tone, she speaks now indistinctly, now distinctly, she appeals to him with dance, song and music, with tears or coquetry, or with her finery, she laughs or stares, she shakes her dress or shifts her loin-cloth, exposes or covers up her leg, exposes her bosom, her armpit, her navel, she closes her eye, she elevates her eyebrow, she pinches her lip, makes her tongue loll out, looses or tightens her cloth dress, looses or tightens her head-gear. Verily in these forty ways she makes up to a man.
Their wantonness
In ancient story Kanha, it is said,
A single maid to princes five was wed,
Insatiate still she lusted for yet more
And with a hump-backed dwarf she played the whore.
Their general wickedness illustrated with choice similes
Verily, friend Punnamukha, these creatures are not mere harlots, wenches or street-walkers, they are not so much strumpets as murderesses —I mean these harlots, wenches, and street-walkers . They are like unto robbers with braided locks, like a poisoned drink, like merchants that sing their own praises, crooked like a deer’s horn, evil-tongued like snakes, like a pit that is covered over, insatiate as hell, as hard to satisfy as a she-ogre, like the all-rapacious Yama, all-devouring like a flame, sweeping all before it as a river, like the wind going where it lists, undiscriminating like mount Neru, fruiting perennially like a poison tree.” Here too occurs a further verse:

Like poisoned draught or robber fell, crooked as horn of stag,
Like serpent evil-tongued are they, as merchant apt to brag,

Murderous as covered pit, like Hell’s insatiate maw are they,
As goblin greedy or like Death that carries all away.

Devouring like a flame are they, mighty as wind or flood,
Like Neru’s golden peak that aye confuses bad and good,
Pernicious as a poison-tree they fivefold ruin bring
On household gear, wasters of wealth and every precious thing.
Their extravagance and infidelity
Perverse in all her acts she does the thing she should eschew,
And hearkens to the stranger’s voice, her favours should he sue,
Her husband’s wealth is freely spent some other love to gain,
By signs like these her wickedness to all is rendered plain.

The wealth that by her lord with toil was carefully amassed,
The gear so painfully heaped up, behold, she squanders fast,
With neighbours far too intimate the lady soon will grow,
And by such signs the wickedness of women one may know.

Stepping abroad behold her how she walks about the streets,
And with the grossest disrespect her lord and master treats:
Nor of adultery stops short, corrupt in heart and mind—
By such like signs how wicked are all womenfolk we find.

Often she will at her own door all decency defy,
And shamelessly expose herself to any passing by,
The while with troubled heart she looks around on every side—
By such like signs the wickedness of women is descried.

As groves are made of wood, as streams in curves and windings flow,
So, give them opportunity, all women wrong will go.

Yea give them opportunity and secrecy withal,
And every single woman will from paths of virtue fall:
Thus will all women wantons prove, should time and place avail,
And e’en with humpback dwarf will sin, should other lovers fail.

Women that serve for man’s delight let every one distrust,
Fickle in heart they ever are and unrestrained in lust.
Ladies of pleasure fitly called, the basest of the base,
To all then such as common are as any bathing place.
Their mercenariness
Let him not trust because he thinks “she fancies me, I trow,”
Nor let him trust because her tears oft in his presence flow;
They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore,
Just as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore.

...

Women are not so formed, this man to love and that abhor,
They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore,
E’en as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore.

’Tis not a case of love or hate with womenfolk we see,
It is for gold they hug a man, like parasites a tree.
And many other vices intrinsic to females, too numerous to list here.

https://suttacentral.net/ja536/en/francis
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cappuccino
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Re: Are women evil?

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Mr Albatross wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:19 pm Hopefully they will motivate you and others to read the Jātaka in its entirety.
Jātaka is not from Buddha
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bodom
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by bodom »

Mr Albatross wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:19 pm
urocentrum wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:15 pm Are there any Buddhist texts which specifically address the wickedness of women?
Great question, urocentrum! You ask about an aspect of the Blessed One's Dhamma that is far too little preached in this wanton and feminized age.

I would say that it is in the Kunala Jātaka that we have the most comprehensive and insightful exposure of the wickedness of women. Here I will give just a few examples. Hopefully they will motivate you and others to read the Jātaka in its entirety.
Thanks for posting. That actually makes me want to read them less than I already do now.

:anjali:
This is our foundation: to have sati, recollection, and sampajañña, self-awareness, whether standing, walking, sitting, or reclining. Whatever arises, just leave it be, don’t cling to it. Whether it’s like or dislike, happiness or suffering, doubt or certainty... Don’t try to label everything, just know it. See that all the things that arise in the mind are simply sensations. They are transient. They arise, exist and cease. That’s all there is to them, they have no self or being, they are neither ‘us’ nor ‘them’. None of them are worthy of clinging to.

- Ajahn Chah
SteRo
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by SteRo »

I am quite sure that the misogynist attitude does not belong to the category "the fittest" which is why it is already only a minority attitude in civilized regions of the world.
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SDC
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by SDC »

Mr Albatross wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:19 pm Great question, urocentrum! You ask about an aspect of the Blessed One's Dhamma that is far too little preached in this wanton and feminized age.

I would say that it is in the Kunala Jātaka...
This post is first and foremost to question your definition of “Dhamma” in order to clarify how the nature of a women has anything directly to do with freedom from suffering.

Sensuality already covers anything related to the five senses that would be considered dangerous and the cause of great suffering. How does a more particular manifestation make things any clearer? The gratification in sensuality is what makes it dangerous :
AN 6.63 wrote: Thought and lust are a man’s sensuality,
Not the various things in the world;
Thought and lust are a man’s sensuality,
The various things just stand there in the world;
But the wise get rid of desire therein.”
It would seem that is the true reason for sensuality, not the women of the world. Those Jātaka musings are weak support, deary. As TRobinson already pointed out, women are weakness for men to extent that men are weak and unrestrained and undeveloped, and vice versa for women. Perplexing how many modern male Buddhists prefer to celebrate their weakness rather than conquer it.
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Bundokji
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Re: Are women evil?

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form wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 pm Ever wonder why the Buddha thought if the Bhikkhunis lineage was allowed, the existence of true dhamma will be shortened? I do not know why exactly.
Did the Buddha say that the true dhamma will be shortened? I thought the true dhamma is timeless, so how can it be shortened? Maybe he was referring to some kind of order?

Probably because he knew our nature. Had the nature of women been directly responsible for shortening true dhamma, the Buddha would not have allowed women to be ordained. One cannot draw a causal relationship based on that. It is akin to chemistry/alchemy, when you mix elements in certain ways you get different results. It would be naive to conclude that one element is responsible for a certain outcome. One have also thought that the true dhamma is

I see parallels between the issue of women and the struggle to have the right grasp in relation to other issues, including:

1- celibacy vs sexuality
2- antinatalism vs breeding
3- monasticism vs family life
4- desire vs attachment
5- dhamma (conquering) vs religion (submissive)

While each pair is intertwined, Buddhists generally believe that the former (which is typically male) is superior, and draw all kind of conclusions based on that.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
TRobinson465
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by TRobinson465 »

To be fair, the OP asked for Buddhist texts that say women are evil and jatakas are still Buddhist texts and I greatly enjoy reading them.

Ignoring some of the things about the jatakas that make ppl skeptical of them as legitimate words of the historic Buddha, such as many jatakas having people speaking in rhymes, which would be quite weird if they were literally accounting real events of the Buddha's previous existences. I think there's many reasons jatakas are not good examples for the OPs request, even assuming they are all legit and accurate texts.

1. The jatakas are told with a lesson in mind so the purpose of the jataka is to relate a lesson and every activity within the jatakas should not be seen as part of the lesson. For instance one jataka I read had the bodhisatta being the owner of a tavern/bar. This does not mean it is okay to run a bar as the Buddha's statements on right livelihood in other texts r pretty clear on this.

2. Jatakas relate a story about specific people at a specific time and can't be extrapolated to a whole group. In fact there's one jataka where an ascetic would rape the queen each night and the king responded by getting rid of all ascetics in the kingdom. A lesson of that jataka was the king should not have gotten rid of all ascetics because of the behavior of one individual one.

3. The jatakas are supposed to be stories of the Buddha's previous existences when he was still an unenlightened bodhisatta who still had defilements and ignorance. So you can't necessarily take lessons from what the Buddha said in his previous lives because he was unenlightened and still had defilements. For instance there was one jataka I read where the bodhisatta was born a king who became overwhelmed with lust for his general's (?) wife to the point where he couldn't even function in society. Probably not a good idea to imitate the bodhisatta's actions in that life.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by Mr Albatross »

SDC wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:47 pm This post is first and foremost to question your definition of “Dhamma” in order to clarify how the nature of a women has anything directly to do with freedom from suffering.
Greetings SDC,

This Jataka was taught to a group of monks who were discontented with the celibacy side of the homeless life. To make matters worse, the monks' evil ex-wives were constantly sending them messages cajoling them to come back home.

So I would say that the Dhamma here is that of disgust leading to dispassion. Obviously the Jātaka is not about the kind of high level nibbida and viraga that leads directly to nibbāna. All the same, it's a low level nibbida and viraga that's good enough to persuade celibate males to let go of their discontent and stay celibate.

And it worked, for after removing the monks' discontent the Blessed One went on to teach them jhana and was able to bring them to enlightenment the same day.
And the Master revealed to them in the Great Forest the means by which ecstasy may be induced, and that very day they attained to Arhatship. There was a mighty gathering of angelic beings, so the Blessed One declared to them the Mahasamayasutta (the discourse preached to a great company).
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Mr Albatross wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:47 am
This Jataka was taught to a group of monks who were discontented with the celibacy side of the homeless life. To make matters worse, the monks' evil ex-wives were constantly sending them messages cajoling them to come back home.
This is actually a good point. it depends on how you define "evil". Ex wives missing thier husbands would normally not be considered "evil", just as Prince Siddhartha's father trying to keep him from becoming a Buddha is generally not considered evil. But in the context of the greater scheme of things in Buddhism, it actually is kinda evil. Just like keeping someone from giving is actually worse and more evil than stealing from someone. When you steal from someone you deprive them of an impermanent object. When you prevent someone from giving, you deprive them of merit, which is far more valuable. In that case, based on the sutta i provided earlier on this thread. Women can be considered evil by nature since they are part of the things of the world that distract men. As would money, pleasant food, men if you're a woman or gay, and other various things in the world that tend to distract the senses. The key however is to control ur senses and to not let these "evil" things cloud ur mind.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.
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Re: Are women evil?

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Mr Albatross wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:47 am So I would say that the Dhamma here is that of disgust leading to dispassion...
...descriptions of which are available in droves in suttas about exactly why the body is unattractive and why sensuality is dangerous. To draw special attention to a more particular, idiosyncratic manifestation of either is to go in the opposite direction of that general nature. No matter what, the body is unattractive. No matter what, sensuality is dangerous. These natures envelop any specific case of beauty or desire, and that is what needs to be understood.

Certainly a woman could be that which is beautiful or desired, but that does not imply inherent evil, it implies an inherent lack of perspective. The presence of which, falls on the individual for not developing, i.e., it is a lack of recollecting these natures that someone is unaware of just how dangerous sensuality can be. But the fact of the matter is that the woman is not found to be the reason for sensuality if and when that lack of perspective is broadened, so they can not be said to be the cause of suffering, and they certainly can’t be said to inherently wicked or evil.

If you stay on the surface; if you stay in the world; if you stay with sensuality, then sure, women are a man’s problem, but the Dhamma is about seeing a thing there with its nature. The wickedness of women is not an “aspect” of Dhamma as you say, it is simply the manifestation of suffering for one entrenched in ignorance, and if not seen along with its cause through development, will continue to manifest in one’s mind as inclinations of sensuality and/or ill-will.
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by Aloka »

Mr Albatross wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:19 pm
I would say that it is in the Kunala Jātaka that we have the most comprehensive and insightful exposure of the wickedness of women. Here I will give just a few examples. Hopefully they will motivate you and others to read the Jātaka in its entirety.
This is a quote from Bhikkhu Sujato at Sutta Central:

The Jatakas are best regarded as folk tales and legends, and are unlikely to have anything to do with the Buddha’s past lives. While the Buddha regularly spoke of past lives in a general sense, it seems that he didn’t tell stories from them. Or at least, not that were passed down.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/on ... takas/2987
(emphasis mine).

.
Last edited by Aloka on Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
BrokenBones
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by BrokenBones »

Simple question... simple answer... yes! They can be...

But no more than men and 'usually' less violent partly because of strength.

I would say that a more pertinent question is whether men have less obstacles than women in pursuing the spiritual path?

I would say yes, but whether that is because of societal or kammic issues I wouldn't like to venture a guess.
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Re: Are women evil?

Post by DooDoot »

Mr Albatross wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:19 pm Great question, urocentrum! You ask about an aspect of the Blessed One's Dhamma that is far too little preached in this wanton and feminized age....I would say that it is in the Kunala Jātaka
Jataka appears not the Blessed One's Dhamma because Jataka was composed hundreds of years after the Blessed One's Parinibbana. It appears your 1st comments on this forum are wrong & illogical; possibly even fall into the category called "papanca mannati" by the Blessed One. :smile:
Mr Albatross wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:19 pmWomen's forty ways of enticing a man.
Verily, friend Punnamukha, in forty different ways a woman makes up to a man . She draws herself up, she bends down, she frisks about, she looks coy, she presses together her finger tips, she plants one foot on the other, she scratches the ground with a stick, she dances her boy up and down, she plays and makes the boy play, she kisses and makes him kiss her, she eats and gives him to eat, she either gives or begs something, whatever is done she mimics, she speaks in a high or low tone, she speaks now indistinctly, now distinctly, she appeals to him with dance, song and music, with tears or coquetry, or with her finery, she laughs or stares, she shakes her dress or shifts her loin-cloth, exposes or covers up her leg, exposes her bosom, her armpit, her navel, she closes her eye, she elevates her eyebrow, she pinches her lip, makes her tongue loll out, looses or tightens her cloth dress, looses or tightens her head-gear. Verily in these forty ways she makes up to a man.
There are suttas that refer to how both men & women have similar ways of enticing each other. Where is such "enticing" regarded as "evil"? :shrug: I imagine "evil" is kamma such as murder, theft, sexual misconduct, lying, taking drugs, etc. I doubt a lady following instinctual genetic programming while seeking a husband & mate is engaged in evil. It appears she is simply following how nature created her.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:46 am, edited 8 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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