first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

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BrokenBones
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:28 pm
Pondera wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:08 pm According to Buddhaghosa, the probability of anyone reaching immersion through nimitta kasina is 1 in 100,000,000.

For real. 1 in one thousand can’t reach the learning sign.

And so, on. I’d love to find the passage, but my love affair with Buddhaghosa ended a long time ago.

Thanks Ghosa, for all the good times. Imma stick to EBT’S from here on out. :jumping:
Really? You are dropping the chakra stuff now?
I don't know Pondera's views but it seems that you are changing the subject... 🤔
Ratnakar
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:40 pm
sphairos wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:36 pm
It's just your belief, and Ceisiwr's belief that Visuddhimagga jhāna is "correct" (so Buddhaghosa must be an arahant).
It’s not a belief. Regarding if he was an Arahant or not, I have no idea. I do disagree with him on a few things.
What do you disagree with buddhaghosa ?
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Ratnakar wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:57 am ...
Thanks friend 🙏🙏, I want to know your opinion too, do you think one can do vippassana while in access and do you think for one who can only attain access they can attain arahantship ?

Whatever your claim is please back it with a visuddhimagga quote friend


Thanks for the questions. I need to learn a lot more to answer these questions properly. Anyway, imo, I would say yes to both questions. First one may easily be found in Vism, I think. Second one may be related to Abhidhamma 8 or 40 types of supramundane cittas:
  • Supra-Mundane Citta and Jhāna
    There are two vehicles (yāna) to obtain the supra-mundane cittas: Vipassanā yāna and samatha yāna. A person who practises bare vipassanā meditation experiences the four path cittas and the four fruition cittas. Therefore, there are only eight supra-mundane cittas for the person who realizes supra-mundane citta through vipassanā meditation. However, consider a person who first develops samatha or tranquillity meditation and achieves the first jhāna, as the foundation for his vipassanā insight. For this person the first path consciousness is also accompanied by the first jhāna, so it is known as the first jhāna stream entry path citta. Like-wise for the second, third, fourth and fifth jhāna stream entry path cittas. Thus, there are five stream entry path cittas associated with each jhānic stage. In other words, the stream entry path citta is multiplied by the five jhānas. In the same way, there are five once returning paths, five non-returning paths and five Arahantship paths. Thus, the total number of path consciousnesses is twenty. As fruition immediately follows the path citta, without any lapse in time, there are also twenty fruition cittas. There are altogether forty types of supra-mundane consciousnesses. In all there are 121 cittas: 81 mundane cittas and 40 supra-mundane cittas.
http://www.abhidhamma.com/Process_of_co ... matter.pdf

:heart:
.


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Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22
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Tennok
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Tennok »

Frank k. wrote
Even animal jhana is better than vism "real first jhana".
Animal jhana can hunt and catch food to survive, feed themselves and their children.
vism. "jhana" can't even do vipassana.
If Buddha was interested in hunting and surviving, he wouldn't walk into homelesness in the first place. He would stay at his father's palace and enjoy chasing deer or tiger, together with other sensual pleasures. What you are preaching here, is a "samsara jhana', or "meat jhana".
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frank k
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by frank k »

Tennok wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:35 am Frank k. wrote
Even animal jhana is better than vism "real first jhana".
Animal jhana can hunt and catch food to survive, feed themselves and their children.
vism. "jhana" can't even do vipassana.
If Buddha was interested in hunting and surviving, he wouldn't walk into homelesness in the first place. He would stay at his father's palace and enjoy chasing deer or tiger, together with other sensual pleasures. What you are preaching here, is a "samsara jhana', or "meat jhana".
I don't think you understand the context and intention of my statement. I'm saying animal jhana is better than a vain pure samatha exercise devoid of vipassana (vism. redefinition of jhana), I'm not saying that the Buddha taught animal jhana.

The point of animal video is to show that full bodily pacification (passadhi sambojjhanga) is really easy and natural to do, and it's sorely missing from Vism. "jhana" training systems, where they overly emphasize "one pointedness" above all else, the students who are perfectly capable of doing real jhana (according to Buddha's definition) jhana-block themselves.

Because they're tightening up physically, mentally, getting hypertension, crossed eyes and headaches from trying to find a visual light on their nostril. and doing their best to 'not think' and 'be one pointed.' This is from personal experience observing hundreds of students training in that misguided way.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:05 pm I'm saying animal jhana is better than a vain pure samatha exercise devoid of vipassana (vism. redefinition of jhana)
vipassana is visuddhimagga redefinition of jhana?
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

visuddhimagga is very good. I hope you quit trashing it. Please.
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frank k
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by frank k »

auto wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:39 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:05 pm I'm saying animal jhana is better than a vain pure samatha exercise devoid of vipassana (vism. redefinition of jhana)
vipassana is visuddhimagga redefinition of jhana?
The Buddha's definition of jhana includes samatha and vipassana concurrent, simultaneous.
See what sati and sampjano do in third jhana, AN 4.41.
And all 7 perception attainments in MN 111.
Vism. redefines jhana to be an arupa samatha only attainment where one can not perceive the body at all, and then one enters a frozen stupor where vipassana is not possible.
They're completely different meditative practices.
If you want to believe Vism.'s redefinition of jhana is better, that's fine. But be clear about what it is and isn't.
Contrary to what Abhidhamma and Vism. claim, Buddha's jhana and their redefinition are completely different things.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by frank k »

(accidental double post)
Last edited by frank k on Sat May 15, 2021 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by frank k »

auto wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:01 pm visuddhimagga is very good. I hope you quit trashing it. Please.
Critical thinking is part of Dhamma vicaya sambojjhanga awakening factor.
I hope you can understand the difference between making critical distinctions and calling something trash.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:06 pm
auto wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:39 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:05 pm I'm saying animal jhana is better than a vain pure samatha exercise devoid of vipassana (vism. redefinition of jhana)
vipassana is visuddhimagga redefinition of jhana?
The Buddha's definition of jhana includes samatha and vipassana concurrent, simultaneous.
See what sati and sampjano do in third jhana, AN 4.41.
And all 7 perception attainments in MN 111.
Vism. redefines jhana to be an arupa samatha only attainment where one can not perceive the body at all, and then one enters a frozen stupor where vipassana is not possible.
They're completely different meditative practices.
If you want to believe Vism.'s redefinition of jhana is better, that's fine. But be clear about what it is and isn't.
Contrary to what Abhidhamma and Vism. claim, Buddha's jhana and their redefinition are completely different things.
an4.41
developing samadhi further, the first part is the regular jhana.
The arising and passing away of perceptions, feelings, thoughts are possible something to do with chandarāga, tanha. Craving causes perceptions, feelings thoughts to arise and acts as fuel to sustain them..
eventually samadhi is so strong that one will come to understand aggregates of what they are
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.27/en/sujato wrote:As long as I didn’t truly understand these five grasping aggregates’ gratification, drawback, and escape for what they are, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening …
Complete understanding,
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.23/en/sujato wrote:And what things should be completely understood?
Katame ca, bhikkhave, pariññeyyā dhammā?
Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.
Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, pariññeyyo dhammo, vedanā pariññeyyo dhammo, saññā pariññeyyo dhammo, saṅkhārā pariññeyyo dhammo, viññāṇaṁ pariññeyyo dhammo.
These are called the things that should be completely understood.
Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, pariññeyyā dhammā.

And what is complete understanding?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, pariññā?
The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.
Yo, bhikkhave, rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo.
This is called complete understanding.”
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, pariññā”ti.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:09 pm
auto wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:01 pm visuddhimagga is very good. I hope you quit trashing it. Please.
Critical thinking is part of Dhamma vicaya sambojjhanga awakening factor.
I hope you can understand the difference between making critical distinctions and calling something trash.
Critical thinking is something which you lack since you don't anticipate Sutta attainments in your way of doing things.

i think we won't see capybaras flying around anytime sooner than millions of years of natural evolution and that also if the habitat promotes to grow wings or something and that isn't supernatural at all.

And don't underestimate the effect on peoples mind when you spread the false hopes. I sometimes get affected. Just admit you are noob like the rest of us till you get supernatural evidence.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:44 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:40 pm
sphairos wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:36 pm
It's just your belief, and Ceisiwr's belief that Visuddhimagga jhāna is "correct" (so Buddhaghosa must be an arahant).
It’s not a belief. Regarding if he was an Arahant or not, I have no idea. I do disagree with him on a few things.
What do you disagree with buddhaghosa ?
1) I don't accept rūpa as being "matter", and so I do not accept nāmarūpa as "mind and matter". I also do not agree with including consciousness under nāma, although this is avoided somewhat in the section on dependent origination in the Visuddhimagga. I read rūpa more as "image" or "form".

2) I don't accept sati in ānāpānasati as being mindful of the breath. Rather sati in ānāpānasati refers to being mindful of the teachings (dhammā) regarding wholesome and unwholesome states (thus being a condition for Dhamma-vicaya) whilst breathing.

3) I don't accept much of the Abhidhamma analysis in terms of causality, nor when it lapses into synthetic a posteriori theories about the world. Basically where it lapses into a kind of proto-science. I don't think the Buddha was concerned with such theories about how the world works, but rather how it is experienced.

More broadly in terms of the commentaries and Abhidhamma I don't accept the two darts in SN 36.6 as being "bodily and mental feelings". Rather I take kāyikañca to be the raw experience at all 6 senses, with cetasikañca being the emotional reaction to that. Likewise I take resistance contact to be occurring at all 6 senses in DN 15, rather than being limited to the 5 senses as per the commentary. I don't agree with lumping a whole load of dhammas under the formations aggregate, which in the suttas simply refers to intentions. Also, I don't take the 6 senses to be sense organs. For example, cakkhu I read as "vision" rather than "eye". Finally I define "kāmā" as sense objects, pleasurable or not, rather than "sensual desires".

That being said, I obviously do agree with the commentaries, the Abhidhamma and the Visuddhimagga on other things.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
Ratnakar
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:44 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:44 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:40 pm

It’s not a belief. Regarding if he was an Arahant or not, I have no idea. I do disagree with him on a few things.
What do you disagree with buddhaghosa ?
1) I don't accept rūpa as being "matter", and so I do not accept nāmarūpa as "mind and matter". I also do not agree with including consciousness under nāma, although this is avoided somewhat in the section on dependent origination in the Visuddhimagga. I read rūpa more as "image" or "form".

2) I don't accept sati in ānāpānasati as being mindful of the breath. Rather sati in ānāpānasati refers to being mindful of the teachings (dhammā) regarding wholesome and unwholesome states (thus being a condition for Dhamma-vicaya) whilst breathing.

3) I don't accept much of the Abhidhamma analysis in terms of causality, nor when it lapses into synthetic a posteriori theories about the world. Basically where it lapses into a kind of proto-science. I don't think the Buddha was concerned with such theories about how the world works, but rather how it is experienced.

More broadly in terms of the commentaries and Abhidhamma I don't accept the two darts in SN 36.6 as being "bodily and mental feelings". Rather I take kāyikañca to be the raw experience at all 6 senses, with cetasikañca being the emotional reaction to that. Likewise I take resistance contact to be occurring at all 6 senses in DN 15, rather than being limited to the 5 senses as per the commentary. I don't agree with lumping a whole load of dhammas under the formations aggregate, which in the suttas simply refers to intentions. Also, I don't take the 6 senses to be sense organs. For example, cakkhu I read as "vision" rather than "eye". Finally I define "kāmā" as sense objects, pleasurable or not, rather than "sensual desires".

That being said, I obviously do agree with the commentaries, the Abhidhamma and the Visuddhimagga on other things.
Do you disagree with buddhaghosa regarding arahantship can be attained Even by bareinsight workers with only momentary concentration ?
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:06 pm The Buddha's definition of jhana includes samatha and vipassana concurrent, simultaneous.
See what sati and sampjano do in third jhana, AN 4.41.
And all 7 perception attainments in MN 111.
Vism. redefines jhana to be an arupa samatha only attainment where one can not perceive the body at all, and then one enters a frozen stupor where vipassana is not possible.
They're completely different meditative practices.
If you want to believe Vism.'s redefinition of jhana is better, that's fine. But be clear about what it is and isn't.
Contrary to what Abhidhamma and Vism. claim, Buddha's jhana and their redefinition are completely different things.
I think you are mistaking mindfulness with insight meditation. The idea of insight meditation is to bring characteristic of existence into mind and attain concentration on fruit and if it happens first time it is path fruit. And increasing samadhi power will define what path fruit you attain..
Pure insight meditation uses momentary concentration to attain same as above but without concentration thus also nirodha samapatti is unattainable for them.
The mindfulness and samadhi is together, mindfulness develops samadhinimitta. Insight meditation deals with aggregates are impermanent, suffering no-self whereas sila and samadhi training has understanding of there is afterlife, kamma, doer, heir to the kamma, parents etc.
Insight meditator tries to see characteristics of existence from start with using momentary concentration.

To repeat the insight is for to bring forth the state where you can concentrate on the path fruit what pure insgiht meditaton can't do but get the path anyway
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