Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

[auto]

He is saying the exact same thing I said here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40154

Which is the same conclusion as the Visuddhimagga, which you quote on your Fake News site:

175. Now, as to the clause he feels bliss with his body: here, although in one actually possessed of the third jhána there is no concern about feeling bliss, nevertheless he would feel the bliss associated with his mental body, and after emerging from the jhána he would also feel bliss since his material body would have been affected by the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss associated with the mental body.48 It is in order to point to this meaning that the words “he feels bliss with his body” are said.

It's a great feeling to find myself reaching the same conclusions as the ancient Theras, as expressed in the Aṭṭhakathā.

the feeling he feels with a body refers the consciousness what bends towards an object =namati
check this quote Doodoot made,

Buddhaghosa wrote:
It cognizes (vijánáti), thus it is consciousness (viññána—see M I 292). It bends (namati), thus it is mentality (nāma). It is molested (ruppati), thus it is materiality (rúpa—see S III 87). It provides a range for the origins (áye tanoti) and it leads on what is actuated (áyatañ ca nayati), thus it is a base (áyatana—see XV.4). It touches (phusati), thus it is contact (phassa). It is felt (vedayati), thus it is feeling (vedaná— see M I 293). It frets (or it thirsts—paritassati), thus it is craving (tanhá). It clings (upádiyati), thus it is clinging (upádána). It becomes (bhavati) and it makes become (bhávayati), thus it is becoming (bhava).

Page 544: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf

same quote without edit:
visuddhimaggga

48. What is said next after this in the [rest of the exposition] beginning, “With
formations as condition, consciousness” should be understood in the way
already stated. But as to those words not yet dealt with: It cognizes (vijánáti),
thus it is consciousness (viññáóa—see M I 292). It bends [towards an object]
(namati), thus it is mentality (náma). It is molested (ruppati), thus it is materiality
(rúpa—see S III 87). It provides a range for the origins (áye tanoti) and it leads on
what is actuated (áyatañ ca nayati), thus it is a base (áyatana—see XV.4). It touches
(phusati), thus it is contact (phassa). It is felt (vedayati), thus it is feeling (vedaná—
see M I 293). It frets (or it thirsts—paritassati), thus it is craving (taóhá). It clings
(upádiyati), thus it is clinging (upádána). It becomes (bhavati) and it makes become
(bhávayati), thus it is becoming (bhava).

Sutta,
namarupa=nati=inclination

When consciousness is established, name and form are conceived.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.

When consciousness is established and grows, there is an inclination.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nati hoti.

body is an organ of an internal sense field - a consciousness what is actuated. Point is that the object(in jhana) causes physical feeling(outside of jhana/physical body activated/readied for contact).

[auto]

There is a mind made body which comes after perfecting the four jhanas.
..
That the Buddha might explicitly describe a mind made body here and, in other parts, refer to it without explicitly stating that it is not otherwise seems implausible.

The ordinary, and obvious conclusion is that kaya means body. The same physical body made of rupa. Just as one is in rupa jhana - one experiences rapture and pleasure with the rupa-kaya.

If it was otherwise, the Buddha would explicitly state it - just as he does later with the development of the psychic powers.

In jhana no physical body(internal sense field) is felt, you got to explicitly bend towards an object(external sense field) and emerging from that can have tangible feeling due body sensitivity.

[Pondera]

There is a mind made body which comes after perfecting the four jhanas.
..
That the Buddha might explicitly describe a mind made body here and, in other parts, refer to it without explicitly stating that it is not otherwise seems implausible.

The ordinary, and obvious conclusion is that kaya means body. The same physical body made of rupa. Just as one is in rupa jhana - one experiences rapture and pleasure with the rupa-kaya.

If it was otherwise, the Buddha would explicitly state it - just as he does later with the development of the psychic powers.

In jhana no physical body(internal sense field) is felt, you got to explicitly bend towards an object(external sense field) and emerging from that can have tangible feeling due body sensitivity.

What then is the difference between “the cessation of perception and feeling” versus any jhana?

[confusedlayman]

mind body means awareness and perception of sukha alone without perception of body existing in case of 3rd jhana

[auto]

What then is the difference between “the cessation of perception and feeling” versus any jhana?

jhana is the 1-4, developing consciousness. The four-ayatana are to develop wisdom which is to completely understand consciousness. Complete means giving up chandharaga or greed, delusion, hate or ignorance.
The cessation is the non-occurrence of consciousness. Perception and feeling is cittasankhara. Cessation also refer to tranquilization of effort.

[Pondera]

What then is the difference between “the cessation of perception and feeling” versus any jhana?

jhana is the 1-4, developing consciousness. The four-ayatana are to develop wisdom which is to completely understand consciousness. Complete means giving up chandharaga or greed, delusion, hate or ignorance.
The cessation is the non-occurrence of consciousness. Perception and feeling is cittasankhara. Cessation also refer to tranquilization of effort.

Is one aware in cessation?

[auto]

What then is the difference between “the cessation of perception and feeling” versus any jhana?

jhana is the 1-4, developing consciousness. The four-ayatana are to develop wisdom which is to completely understand consciousness. Complete means giving up chandharaga or greed, delusion, hate or ignorance.
The cessation is the non-occurrence of consciousness. Perception and feeling is cittasankhara. Cessation also refer to tranquilization of effort.

Is one aware in cessation?

yes

And that, Poṭṭhapāda, is how the gradual cessation of perception is attained with awareness.
Evaṁ kho, poṭṭhapāda, anupubbābhisaññānirodhasampajānasamāpatti hoti.

[Ceisiwr]

You claim adherence to the suttas and then rope in Abhidhamma concepts for your argument.

Nāmakāya isn't an Abhidhamma concept. If you are referring to cittasamuṭṭhāna-rūpa, that was not part of my argument.

A recurring pattern is your refusal to give a satisfactory explanation for the Jhana similes... they're very straightforward.

I have already walked you through those similes. You, quite obviously, reject said explanation. What I am sure of is that if you had submitted your arguments in essay form as part of a degree you would get an F.

Childish? Perhaps... but the Buddha wasn't crafty or vague in his teachings... straightforward similes to convey straightforward teachings... so straightforward a 'child' could understand them.

We are removed from the Buddha by 25 centuries, dealing with texts which have been drastically trimmed down and reading them from a totally different culture and worldview. To those sat right in front of the Buddha the way he used "body" in this instance would have been perfectly clear. In our time it can cause confusion but the original meaning can be found when the texts as a whole, and particularly the Pāli, are studied. Understanding the culture and how "body" was used by others from back then obviously also helps. I would also, of course, factor in what the ancient Theras had to say on the matter since unlike modern western converts who work, have families and probably meditate for a couple of hours at most a week, if lucky, they spent all day in either meditation or Dhamma study. And of course, the further back you go the closer they were to the cultural context that the Buddha lived in.

[Pondera]

jhana is the 1-4, developing consciousness. The four-ayatana are to develop wisdom which is to completely understand consciousness. Complete means giving up chandharaga or greed, delusion, hate or ignorance.
The cessation is the non-occurrence of consciousness. Perception and feeling is cittasankhara. Cessation also refer to tranquilization of effort.

Is one aware in cessation?

yes

And that, Poṭṭhapāda, is how the gradual cessation of perception is attained with awareness.
Evaṁ kho, poṭṭhapāda, anupubbābhisaññānirodhasampajānasamāpatti hoti.

The cessation of perception and feeling is the only attainment where the body is not felt - simply because feeling has “ceased” in this attainment.

That fact is evident here - where “the cessation of perception and feeling” is stated implicitly.

Notice also that the rupa jhanas are stated implicitly:

“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

https://suttacentral.net/an11.7/en/sujato

[BrokenBones]

You claim adherence to the suttas and then rope in Abhidhamma concepts for your argument.

Nāmakāya isn't an Abhidhamma concept. If you are referring to cittasamuṭṭhāna-rūpa, that was not part of my argument.

A recurring pattern is your refusal to give a satisfactory explanation for the Jhana similes... they're very straightforward.

I have already walked you through those similes. You, quite obviously, reject said explanation. What I am sure of is that if you had submitted your arguments in essay form as part of a degree you would get an F.

Childish? Perhaps... but the Buddha wasn't crafty or vague in his teachings... straightforward similes to convey straightforward teachings... so straightforward a 'child' could understand them.

We are removed from the Buddha by 25 centuries, dealing with texts which have been drastically trimmed down and reading them from a totally different culture and worldview. To those sat right in front of the Buddha the way he used "body" in this instance would have been perfectly clear. In our time it can cause confusion but the original meaning can be found when the texts as a whole, and particularly the Pāli, are studied. Understanding the culture and how "body" was used by others from back then obviously also helps. I would also, of course, factor in what the ancient Theras had to say on the matter since unlike modern western converts who work, have families and probably meditate for a couple of hours at most a week, if lucky, they spent all day in either meditation or Dhamma study. And of course, the further back you go the closer they were to the cultural context that the Buddha lived in.

No need to resort to personal attacks... again.

The fact that your argument is so weak and relies on so much linguistic sleight of hand (re similes - nimitta's etc.) is I'm sure quite vexing.

You never did explain the head to toe simile and why the Buddha would use such a physical expression to convey (in your opinion) a purely mental experience.

I may get an 'F' but your ideas don't even pass the pub test.

[waryoffolly]

We are removed from the Buddha by 25 centuries, dealing with texts which have been drastically trimmed down and reading them from a totally different culture and worldview. To those sat right in front of the Buddha the way he used "body" in this instance would have been perfectly clear. In our time it can cause confusion but the original meaning can be found when the texts as a whole, and particularly the Pāli, are studied. Understanding the culture and how "body" was used by others from back then obviously also helps. I would also, of course, factor in what the ancient Theras had to say on the matter since unlike modern western converts who work, have families and probably meditate for a couple of hours at most a week, if lucky, they spent all day in either meditation or Dhamma study. And of course, the further back you go the closer they were to the cultural context that the Buddha lived in.

Hi again Ceiswir,

Can you or someone else point me to some scholarly work discussing the common (ie cultural) usage of kaya in the time of the Buddha? (Discussing usages of kaya external to the canon. I know where to look if I want to see it’s usages inside the canon!)

[Assaji]

Hi waryoffolly,

Can you or someone else point me to some scholarly work discussing the common (ie cultural) usage of kaya in the time of the Buddha? (Discussing usages of kaya external to the canon. I know where to look if I want to see it’s usages inside the canon!)

Pāli Canon is about the only text from the time of the Buddha, so we are left with Vedic and Sanskrit usage:

2. kāya m. (√ci, Pāṇ. 3-3, 41), the body, KātyŚr. ; Mn. &c. [ID=48459]
the trunk of a tree, R. [ID=48460]
the body of a lute (the whole except the wires), L. [ID=48461]
assemblage, collection, multitude, SaddhP. [ID=48462]
principal, capital, Nār. ; Bṛh. [ID=48463]
a house, habitation, L. [ID=48464]
a butt, mark, L. [ID=48465]
any object to be attained, L. [ID=48466]
natural temperament, L. [ID=48467]

https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln. ... /index.php

Monier-Williams dictionary gives references to specific texts, so you can estimate the time of usage by looking up their dates.

[auto]

The cessation of perception and feeling is the only attainment where the body is not felt - simply because feeling has “ceased” in this attainment.

That fact is evident here - where “the cessation of perception and feeling” is stated implicitly.

Notice also that the rupa jhanas are stated implicitly:

“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth,..
.. And yet they would still perceive.”

https://suttacentral.net/an11.7/en/sujato

'kāyena phusitvā' used in case of cessation of perception and feeling. Is it body or is it refer to personally. Thanissaro translates it bodily.

Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
phusitvā：[abs．of phusati] having touched； having reached； having attained．

What is the personal witness that the Buddha spoke of?”
Kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, kāyasakkhī vutto bhagavatā”ti?
..
Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.
Puna caparaṁ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.
They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way.
Yathā yathā ca tadāyatanaṁ tathā tathā naṁ kāyena phusitvā viharati.

Thanissaro,

“Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness without a sequel.”

it seem the touching with a body comes after having emerged that attainment. Like Ceiswr earlier pointed out.
In short, there is attainment and after that one will look ways to touch that attainment with a body or personally.

the 3rd jhana 'kāyena paṭisaṁvedeti' is after emerging from the attainment of 3rd jhana

[waryoffolly]

Hi waryoffolly,

Can you or someone else point me to some scholarly work discussing the common (ie cultural) usage of kaya in the time of the Buddha? (Discussing usages of kaya external to the canon. I know where to look if I want to see it’s usages inside the canon!)

Pāli Canon is about the only text from the time of the Buddha, so we are left with Vedic and Sanskrit usage:

2. kāya m. (√ci, Pāṇ. 3-3, 41), the body, KātyŚr. ; Mn. &c. [ID=48459]
the trunk of a tree, R. [ID=48460]
the body of a lute (the whole except the wires), L. [ID=48461]
assemblage, collection, multitude, SaddhP. [ID=48462]
principal, capital, Nār. ; Bṛh. [ID=48463]
a house, habitation, L. [ID=48464]
a butt, mark, L. [ID=48465]
any object to be attained, L. [ID=48466]
natural temperament, L. [ID=48467]

https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln. ... /index.php

Monier-Williams dictionary gives references to specific texts, so you can estimate the time of usage by looking up their dates.

Thanks!

[Polar Bear]

The quote below suggests to me the Visuddhimagga accepts the idea of bodily pleasure in jhana-

So uplifting happiness can be powerful enough to levitate the body, make it spring up into the air.
98. But when pervading (rapturous) happiness arises, the whole body is completely pervaded, like a filled bladder, like a rock cavern invaded by a huge inundation.
99. Now, this fivefold happiness, when conceived and matured, perfects the twofold tranquillity, that is, bodily and mental tranquillity. When tranquillity is conceived and matured, it perfects the twofold bliss, that is, bodily and mental bliss. When bliss is conceived and matured, it perfects the threefold concentration, that is, momentary concentration, access concentration, and absorption concentration.
Of these, what is intended in this context by happiness is pervading happiness, which is the root of absorption and comes by growth into association with absorption.

- pg 138 Nanamoli’s translation

.