Side effects of meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Tennok
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Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

I 've stumbled upon this article...while reading some discussion here, thanks to mr Broken Bones. Anyway, it's pretty interesting.

https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/bri ... 0thing.pdf

This scholar says, that body based meditations, such as body scan and breath awarness meditations, are most likely to create side effects, such as anxiety and overstimulation. And the positive effects of body based practice is a beginner thing.

In "jhana hard" mediatations, the physical body is being irrelevant/abbandoned and the nimitta and jhana factors are the main meditation object.
This may suggest, that the hard jhana / Visuddhimagga approach is actually safer for long term meditators, than body scans, breath meditations, etc.

What do you think?

Another question...did anyone researched the unwanterd, wrong effcts of meditation practices on Theravada monks? Such as depression, sleep problems etc. I ve heard that some monks are really afraid of meditating and try to avoid it.
Alino
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Alino »

Car is not a problem, bad driver is a problem.

Dhamma practice is about letting go of attachment, about wise introspection, it's not about having good sensual stimulations.
When letting go is done rightly, mind become light and calm.

What is right letting go?
Right letting go is 8 Noble Path. It starts with Right Intention. Right intention is about renounciation.
But when meditator still pursue sensuality, still enjoy disturbing his mind with stuff, and then go meditate - he will get a bad time.

Problem is not a meditation, problem is to use it as tool for get more subtiles stimulations, while these joy and happiness are side effects of letting go. Letting go of one's own life to the Dhamma if needed. While there is tention and resistance, it means that mind is not completely surrendered to the Dhamma, he is not 100% with it. Then problem begins...

If we moving around while doctor operating - he will cut all inside. We need to surrender to the Dhamma, over it our life, let doctor do his job...

Imho
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
BrokenBones
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

Tennok wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:49 am I 've stumbled upon this article...while reading some discussion here, thanks to mr Broken Bones. Anyway, it's pretty interesting.

https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/bri ... 0thing.pdf

This scholar says, that body based meditations, such as body scan and breath awarness meditations, are most likely to create side effects, such as anxiety and overstimulation. And the positive effects of body based practice is a beginner thing.

In "jhana hard" mediatations, the physical body is being irrelevant/abbandoned and the nimitta and jhana factors are the main meditation object.
This may suggest, that the hard jhana / Visuddhimagga approach is actually safer for long term meditators, than body scans, breath meditations, etc.

What do you think?

Another question...did anyone researched the unwanterd, wrong effcts of meditation practices on Theravada monks? Such as depression, sleep problems etc. I ve heard that some monks are really afraid of meditating and try to avoid it.
It may suggest a lot of things. I actually agree that concentration exercises which focus on the body are not a particularly good thing.

Any pleasure that arises in the body through following the Buddha's instructions (as opposed to Buddhaghosa's) is not brought about by focusing on the actual body.

Why would anapana involve focusing on the body?
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

Alino wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:14 am Car is not a problem, bad driver is a problem.
Yes, that's true. In a way. To understand Dhamma - and to live by it and surrender to it - is more difficult, than just meditating. The shooters and gamblers may focuss really well on the breath, or the present moment, but it has not much to do with Dhamma. And doing secular mindfulness, with lot of typical, old tanha, can bring extra stress.

When letting go really works, it feels so easy...so great. But when I'm stuck in avija, lobha and dosa, letting go is soooo difficult :cry:.

Nevertheless, the scholar found some patterns of over noticing....and overstimulating. Mindfulness overdose. And there is a line of thought, in which Lord Buddha practiced jhana and letting go, and the vipassana, the insight, was rather a fruit of such practice, not a method of practice itself.

Perhaps that's why many people get those side effects - becouse whole method of endless, intense "body scaning" , focusing on smallest pieces of the experience, is wrong. Perhaps contemplating the Dhamma would be more beneficial than that.

Or like Alino says, method is good and poeople just suffer becouse of their wrong view and craving?

I dunno.
Alino
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Alino »

As my Teachers say, it's more about openning the mind, about spaciousness, not about narriwing and tightenig up, screwing up the mind.

Brahmas see thouthand of world systems, their mind is open, not shut up.

Personally I practice anapanasati body very simply:
When I breath out, I feel how the energy vawe of that breath out go thought the whole body, from top to bottom, and with each breath vawe out the body relaaaax .... breath in.... relaaaaaaax 😑😑😑... breath iiiin.... relaaaaax....😑😑😑
It fills the body with pleasure, it becomes bright, calm, pleasant... body is felt as a whole... a little bit numb.. pleasantly numb...it gently 'envelops' the mind like a pillow all around... mind calms down to... it's good... there is spaciousness and openness...😑😑😑

If it can be useful...🙏😑
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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Aloka
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Aloka »

Tennok wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:49 am
I 've stumbled upon this article...while reading some discussion here, thanks to mr Broken Bones. Anyway, it's pretty interesting.

https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/bri ... 0thing.pdf
Your link doesn't work. I'm getting "404 Error", "Page not found".

:shrug:

.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Tennok wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:49 am
Another question...did anyone researched the unwanterd, wrong effcts of meditation practices on Theravada monks? Such as depression, sleep problems etc. I ve heard that some monks are really afraid of meditating and try to avoid it.
I didn't hear of any studies about monks but there have been some studies done on people who suffer from post traumatic stress disorder PTSD. I think it was done with soldiers who had big problems after coming back from Iraq or Afghanistan.
They found that techniques like mindfulness made PTSD worse and instead they should focus on techniques like metta meditation and just regular breath focus.

I have absolutely no citations for any of this, it was just something I heard on a podcast with a researcher once. :lol:
Jack19990101
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Jack19990101 »

Anapanasati meditation exposes our existing problems, it is not creating them.
Those problems are being ignored by constantly seeking external stimulus.
simsapa
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by simsapa »

Nevertheless, the scholar found some patterns of over noticing....and overstimulating.
What patterns exactly? Who was tested? How? Did they test monks following the path? Like a forest monk in a cave? What does "over" mean?
And there is a line of thought, in which Lord Buddha practiced jhana and letting go, and the vipassana, the insight, was rather a fruit of such practice, not a method of practice itself.
What practice?
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

quote=Aloka post_id=635600 time=1627652837 user_id=174]

Your link doesn't work. I'm getting "404 Error", "Page not found".

:shrug:

Strange. it was working, I guess. It's this page.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... kK93n5dtUl


You can google: Willoughby Britton adverse effects of meditation
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

simsapa wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:08 pm
What practice?
I mean that there is a model 'or interpetation of the Noble Path, in which the insight is not something you actively work on. It's rather the the result of mastering and realisizng all of the elements of the Noble 8. The meditation in suttas is mainly reaching Right Samadhi via jhana.

I'm not doing much vipassana nowdays. But I remember practicing seriously with two teachers, senior Asian monks. They both really focused on the stage of practice, when your noticing of phenomena gets so refined, that you can remember each second of your meditation, and those mikro components of the experience are really tiny. For example the sensation of touch gets detailed, the notion of moving your hand splits into many smaller moves. You notice many subtle components of the experience.

One of those teachers was a Mahasi follower from Sri Lanka. The other was Burmeese, the both were vipassana experts. Their approach was based mostly on Sattipathana Sutta - the one which was likely "reforged" many times, including XX Century, after the Vipassana movement got influential. Someone told me this "looking for atoms" approach is based on Abhidamma, too. I guess I was supposed to experience Anicca and Anatta. And perhaps I did.

Anyway, in the Cannon, Buddha advocates doing Jahna. We know He was doing breath meditation every day, probably in order to stay in Jhana. There is almost no mention of vipassana practices. And that's why I'm bit sceptical to them. I found them too intense, as well. Perhaps I'm just wrong and biased, I dunno.

I guess I'm one of those fools, who instead of practicing Dhamma 100%, is still looking for an easy, perfect method. :tongue: . And my guessings and interretation of this research data may be entirely wrong, I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist :smile:

Better read about it yourelf :smile: . But beware. This lady wrote a whole 150 page study about meditation effects.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... lvgr5pb5g_
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:45 am Anapanasati meditation exposes our existing problems, it is not creating them.
Those problems are being ignored by constantly seeking external stimulus.
Could be. I saw an old video, where Ajahn Chah says his forrest monks face lot of hard times in their practice and some even wants to kill themelves. He laughed :smile:

And I've seen many folks exploding emotionally at intense retreats. In my zen circles it was often said, that a therapy before starting meditation, is a good idea. Problem is, that secular mindfulness is being promoted, often appart from the contexst of Dhamma, as perfect medicine and remedy, safe and nice.

I wonder how often people are being warned, that they will face all the demons, traumas and pain, that they were avoiding so far.

There is this Tibetan saying: If you don't really have to follow the Path, don't start. But if you started, you better walk it all the way to the end.
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

JamesTheGiant post_id=635632 time=1627683762 user_id=10064]

I didn't hear of any studies about monks but there have been some studies done on people who suffer from post traumatic stress disorder PTSD. I think it was done with soldiers who had big problems after coming back from Iraq or Afghanistan.
They found that techniques like mindfulness made PTSD worse and instead they should focus on techniques like metta meditation and just regular breath focus.

I' ve read a book by a guy who was a pioneer ot PTSD therapy in US. "The Body Keeps the Score".

He found out that body based practices like hatha yoga, tai chi or sufi dance worked well for his patients, couse trauma was "recorded" in the body. Movement and body focus, but with a meditation quality into it.
Alino
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Alino »

"Side effects of non-meditation"
"Side effects of sensual stimulation"
"Side effects of Samsara"
...

🙃
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

Alino wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:30 am "Side effects of non-meditation"
"Side effects of sensual stimulation"
"Side effects of Samsara"
...

🙃
:jumping: Good one.

I guess it's illness, aging and death...
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