Lotus Position

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

[james] wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:10 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Beautiful. I hope I attain this level some day. :P
Not to criticize your aspirations but I don’t see any particular level of attainment in these snap shots. A five hour video would more accurately show what is going on. I would suggest child mistreatment.
By the color of their robes, they seem to be Burmese kids. Burmese monks do meditate a lot. I read somewhere that monks in Pa-Auk Monastery are advised to meditate around 17 hours a day.

But even if they were not Burmese, what is wrong about it?
SN 35.127 wrote: "How can it come about, Bhaaradvaaja, depending on what is it that these young monks, youthful, black-haired, with the bloom of youth, in the prime of life, never having enjoyed the pleasure of the senses, can practice the holy life fully and perfectly to the end of their days?"
Two seven-year-old Arahats were Samanera Sumana and Samanera Pandita (Sukha) (Ref: Dhammapada V. 382 & V.80)
Thag 6.10 wrote:When I was seven
& newly gone forth,
having conquered with my power
the great powerful serpent,
I was fetching water for my preceptor
from the great lake, Anotatta,[1]
when the Teacher saw me & said:

"Look, Sariputta, at that one,
the young boy coming there,
carrying a pot of water,
well-centered within,
his practices — inspiring;
his bearing — admirable.
He's Anuruddha's novice,
mature in his powers,
made thoroughbred by a thoroughbred,
good by one who is good,
tamed by Anuruddha,
trained by one whose task
is done.

He, having reached the highest peace
& realized the unshakable,
Sumana the novice
wants this:
'Don't let anyone know me.'"
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

[james] wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:10 pm Novices & Five Hour Lotus sits
If they are novices, what are they being made to sit for five hours?

I don't really know.

Kids are naturally very very flexible.

I once read somewhere that they don't need much "mental restraint" to sit calmly & peacefully, compared to the older ones.

Considering that point, in together with Goenkaji's children courses for Anapana, and also in many schools aroun the world, it seems quite beneficial to the kids as well as quite voluntary.


That said:
Image

Image

Image


Image


Malaysia School children (Goenkaji inspired)



  • Children are among'st the fastest adopters of a technique that helps them improve concentration, remove nervousness and fears, and helps them throughout their lives. The Compass is a documentary showcasing how Anapana Meditation, the first step of Vipassana, helps children in their studies and their lives.




:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

I wish I had had a wholesome infancy like them!
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:03 pm ...
Beautiful. I hope I attain this level some day. :P
I barely bear keeping the lotus posture for more than a few minutes. I need more flexibility.

Great. Flexibility first, indeed, at hip joint, they say.

imo, un-forced lotus would definitely make one sit longer, stable, unmoved, and relaxed at the same time. Forced lotus would very likely injure the meditator's knees if he is not young enough like these kids.


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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DNS
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by DNS »

Kids are very flexible. The reason most adults are not flexible is because they didn't keep up with it. It is natural to be flexible, prevents injuries, allows you to sit longer and without pain. As long as the kids are not being forced to sit and for long periods, I think it's all good.

Notice how a baby or animal wakes up from sleep; the first thing they do is stretch. They raise their arms up high and stretch. Adult humans have forgotten this important part of life that is the need to stretch and maintain flexibility.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

DNS wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:28 pm ...

I think I found, many months ago, David's profile picture in lotus pose in higher resolution somewhere, but not anymore. I like the lotus in profile picture more than that with the yellow shirt shown in the wiki of meditation postures. It would be great to see that in higher resolution again, by sharing it here if possible :smile:.


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
[james]
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Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:07 pm

Re: Lotus Position

Post by [james] »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:50 pm
[james] wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:10 pm Novices & Five Hour Lotus sits
If they are novices, what are they being made to sit for five hours?
I don't really know.
Kids are naturally very very flexible.
I once read somewhere that they don't need much "mental restraint" to sit calmly & peacefully, compared to the older ones.
Of course kids are physically flexible. That is why things like ballet, gymnastics, trapeze work and a wide variety of miserable child labor situations start at a very young age. So yes, naturally physically flexible and, also naturally, mentally, emotionally malleable which is why too many children in every society are pushed and forced by their alleged caretakers into circumstances that they would not “naturally” choose for themselves. They have, by their own valid childish understanding, much more important things to do. I have no objection to teaching children meditation and the lotus position but to suggest that requiring six, seven, or eight year old novices to sit for hours at a time is something to celebrate is promoting a fiction. This is not the natural activity of children.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

[james] wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:03 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:50 pm
[james] wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:03 pm
If they are novices, what are they being made to sit for five hours?
I don't really know.
Kids are naturally very very flexible.
I once read somewhere that they don't need much "mental restraint" to sit calmly & peacefully, compared to the older ones.
Of course kids are physically flexible. That is why things like ballet, gymnastics, trapeze work and a wide variety of miserable child labor situations start at a very young age. So yes, naturally physically flexible and, also naturally, mentally, emotionally malleable which is why too many children in every society are pushed and forced by their alleged caretakers into circumstances that they would not “naturally” choose for themselves. They have, by their own valid childish understanding, much more important things to do. I have no objection to teaching children meditation and the lotus position but to suggest that requiring six, seven, or eight year old novices to sit for hours at a time is something to celebrate is promoting a fiction. This is not the natural activity of children.
Thanks. The sentiment well noted. :smile:



How about shutting down schools? :lol:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
[james]
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by [james] »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:18 am How about shutting down schools? :lol:
Not a bad idea. They’re mostly about moulding and regimentation. Not entirely of course.

Some of those pictures you posted reminded me of school experiences where a teacher or administrator gets a bright idea and everyone has to tow the line on it for weeks or months until it gets bogged down with its own absurdity. The notion that “full” lotus sitting gives one an edge on samadhi, jhana, awakening or whatever is forever popping up because it appeals to a desperate hunger.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

[james] wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:37 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:18 am How about shutting down schools? :lol:
Not a bad idea. They’re mostly about moulding and regimentation. ...
Thanks.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
48vows
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by 48vows »

we know that when people's mind is distrubed, their body tense up.
so then we think that those with flexible body must have calm mind
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

48vows wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:06 pm we know that when people's mind is distrubed, their body tense up.
so then we think that those with flexible body must have calm mind

May be somewhat related. However, my opinion with a slightly exaggerated example would be: ... I don't think the best contortionists have the calmest minds.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
48vows
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Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:31 am

Re: Lotus Position

Post by 48vows »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:49 pm May be somewhat related. However, my opinion with a slightly exaggerated example would be: ... I don't think the best contortionists have the calmest minds.
Sure, but I think this is where the idea of that connection comes from
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Lotus Position

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Hands-free full lotus 3-second video clip


𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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