Meditation and Cannabis

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
BrokenBones
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by BrokenBones »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:04 pm
Maybe a teeny weeny bit of killing will give me the breakthrough.
If such discussion of alteration of brainwaves and spiritual use of psychedelics as a meditation adjunct gives rise to such thoughts and comparisons in you, you should examine yourself deeply, something is clearly wrong...
I think you need to get a grip and recognise weakness for what it is. We're all 'weak' in some way or another... the hard part is accepting it and doing something about it as opposed to prattling on about 'base mental states & processing' to justify those weaknesses.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Weakness is where there there is no control. I don't use and have no desire to, there is no weakness there.

However that doesn't mean I don't share my past experience with others who may wish to be using it in a more beneficial way if they still use it.

Maybe you have had bad experiences or difficulty with urges so a total rejection of anything about the subject is better for you, which I dont disagree with. But such an approach doesn't work for all.

Monks in Thailand smoke cigarettes for example which I likewise don't agree with. The dhamma is not a dogma, but can be reached only by one's own discernment and experience applying it. If someone attains a state of concentration using a psychedelic then it is up to them to discern it's value. Neither you nor anyone else can have any meaningful judgement of it outside your own opinions and interpretation.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm
Are you speaking from experience?
Yes.
I would call it conducive to altering the base mental state and mental processing, which may in turn be used for increased sensory gratification yes, or other purposes.
It still is gratification based on the senses. A chemical is being ingested to induce pleasurable experiences. In opposition to that there is the pleasure of Jhāna which is free from the senses. The underlying tendencies will always underlie and be activated by smoking weed. They aren't when in Jhāna. Sensory pleasure is always unwholesome. Jhāna is not. Smoking weed is always unwholesome.
“When there are words, there is the fetter of birth and death. When words do not exist, there is nirvāṇa. Those who have words have birth, death, arising and cessation; those who have no words have no birth, no death, no arising and no cessation.”

EĀ 30:1
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:11 pm
It still is gratification based on the senses. A chemical is being ingested to induce pleasurable experiences. In opposition to that there is the pleasure of Jhāna which is free from the senses. The underlying tendencies will always underlie and be activated by smoking weed. They aren't when in Jhāna. Sensory pleasure is always unwholesome. Jhāna is not. Smoking weed is always unwholesome.
How do you know a state of jhana cannot be attained in conjunction with a psychedelic? You can't put all these substances in the same boat. Cannabis may be possible for a few to use to attain greater alertness and focus on the breath but is not the best candidate for this and definitely generally leads to increased sensory gratification which is why I oppose it overall. It leads to habitual use, however if used exclusively as an enhancement of absorption in the present it can be used skillfully, I did so numerous times with martial arts practice which is essentially a moving meditation so it can be done.

It is still about how you use it. Mindfulness can also lead to increased sensory gratification (wrong mindfulness) if one uses powers of attentiveness and concentration to increase enjoyment and desire for sensual pleasures.

Something like LSD is a better candidate for use as a meditation adjunct to produce a jhana state and give rise to iddhis, but again extreme caution is required and it could be detrimental for many.
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Tennok
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Tennok »

Actually...according to the suttas, mind door is one of the senses, right? So pleasing it with a weed is a sensory gratification.

Speaking from the experience, I aways found meditation insights were so much different from any drug inducted state. The main difference is that psychedelic revelations don't last...and were much less integrated to my daily self. It's almost like it happend to someone else. Some chemical guru, who later becomes fool again :smile: . In that sense meditation is much more beneficial. It doesn't feel like cheating.

But there is a theory, that yoga and meditation were developed in India, after soma, the legendary drug of the Vedas, run out. So drugs could be "ancestors" of meditation practices.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Tennok wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:53 am Actually...according to the suttas, mind door is one of the senses, right? So pleasing it with a weed is a sensory gratification.
I can agree there is sensory gratification in using it also. Weed is generally a very poor choice if one wanted to enhance ones practice with some substance.

Tennok wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:53 am Speaking from the experience, I aways found meditation insights were so much different from any drug inducted state. The main difference is that psychedelic revelations don't last...and were much less integrated to my daily self. It's almost like it happend to someone else. Some chemical guru, who later becomes fool again :smile: . In that sense meditation is much more beneficial. It doesn't feel like cheating.
Yes, psychedelics can be a springboard but it is usually too much and too fast to be integrated to daily life. So very low doses used judiciously if at all, and only as a supplement to rigorous meditation.
However there are many reports of the potential benefits and insight knowledge if used wisely and occasionally in conjunction with meditation and I have experienced it also.
To try to class all these substances together with alcohol and intoxicants is ridiculous.

Tennok wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:53 am But there is a theory, that yoga and meditation were developed in India, after soma, the legendary drug of the Vedas, run out. So drugs could be "ancestors" of meditation practices.
I think this theory is very weak. There is evidence Yoga and meditation was developed in the Indus Valley at least 5-7 thousand years ago so long before time of the Vedas. The substances have always been available, meditation is a gradual process of changing oneself continually, taking some substance can never replace the hard work of meditation and seeing how the mind functions moment by moment. The aim of meditation is not to recreate a drug state.

The goal of meditation is to eliminate defilements not simply attain a peak experience.

However the two can go together and I don't doubt they were used in this way historically by some to good effect.
Alex-Grey-Meditation.jpeg
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Tennok
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Tennok »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:22 am I think this theory is very weak. There is evidence Yoga and meditation was developed in the Indus Valley at least 5-7 thousand years ago so long before time of the Vedas. The substances have always been available, meditation is a gradual process of changing oneself continually, taking some substance can never replace the hard work of meditation and seeing how the mind functions moment by moment. The aim of meditation is not to recreate a drug state. The goal of meditation is to eliminate defilements not simply attain a peak experience.
Ha, Alex Grey, the artist behind Tool's covers. Nice.

Anyway, you are correct with the Indus Valley being much older than Vedas. And of course the goals of meditation are more than just a peak experience. Nevertheless, soma theory has support among scholars. I think some of them would say, that Indus Valley civilization probably used soma, too. The plant is lost now and it may dried out becouse of the same big drought and climate change, that ruined Harappa and Mohenjo Daro.

And Vedas are technically much older, than any other written sources about yoga and meditation. Like a 1000 years. From Indus Valley, we have just a one staue of a guy staring at his own nose... So Rig-veda offers one of the oldest testimonies of spiritual discoveries. First use of the word Samadhi, I guess.

So I actually agree with you, about Indus Valley likely being the cradle of meditation and yoga, but without written sources we don't really now much about their spiritual practices. Their ideas. For example, my avatar is a guy - or a god - in a meditation pose, which comes from a Gundestrup Cauldron, from 150 BC, Denmark.

Would you say, that it is an evidence, that ancient Germanic tribes practiced meditation and yoga?
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Crazy cloud »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:41 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:31 pm
Quite wrong I’m afraid. I mean, yes you can have experiences whilst high but this has nothing to do with what the Buddha was getting at. Jhana is seclusion from objects of the 5 senses. Taking cannabis is the opposite of that.
As usual you are spouting based on theory and book knowledge only.
While I can't see a justification for use of Cannabis, in small doses it would not necessarily muddle mindfulness. The state itself would not be inclined to increase sensory gratification.
Crazy cloud wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:26 pm

Where did the Buddha allow for this? Please provide a quote and reference.
I'm very aware of the fifth precept. And as before mentioned, there are many ways to fine-tune the mind, both with substances or physical efforts.
So, as long as one follows the precepts, there shouldn't be anything wrong to try it. Then one gets more wisdom, and that is the point for practice.
You need to very careful with this track. Use of small doses of cannabis or psychedelics could perhaps be beneficial to a few when combined with meditation but the detrimental effects for most when used with an untrained mind outweigh it usually.
Carefulness comes with the right mindfulness and thorough gathering of information, and not only one's own direct experiences. And part of that gathering of information is to look at how these substances have been used as means to reach levels of consciousness that gives one a new perspective of what we think or say is real and the world. The same goes with using this as enhancement with some method of meditation. I don't believe that is the right thing to do, but believe one let go of any method and experience with an open and clear mind. That gives a clear view of the differences and drawbacks.
However meditation and the Buddhist path is not dogma but an expermentation based on solid principles and methods, and the results.
If it gets tangible results for you then it is what it is. Probably though it will give rise to lethargy and hazyness.
enlightenment.
Being afraid one breaks some holy rules, being a bad Theravada Buddhist and suchlike nonsense, is just another self-made hindrance IMO. If it leads to haziness, one deals with that knowledge and stop or keeps investigating it further, is my attitude.

There is no doubt a historical use of substances for meditation adjuncts in India. But don't expect to find much support or justification in the Canon or from the Sangha. Some lay practicioners perhaps.

The 'Arhant' :roll: Daniel Ingram advocates psychedelics, and peak experiences on LSD is probably why he believes he attained
Daniel seems to be quite an ordinary and kind human being, but I don't know anything of his attainments. About LSD as a skilful mean, I've listened to a podcast by Ram Dass, who was at the forefront of the psychedelic movement in the early sixties. He said some interesting facts from his research, and in short, they were: The hindrance for people to get a real experience of transcendent religious experience was in correspondence to the social stigma/taboos and negative consequences for the individuals. The same conclusions are reported from physicians performing treatment today with psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. When the doses are right, substances are pure, and people around know and behave in accordance with sound medical ethics, the outcome is amazing.
And it's doesn't lead to addictions, it leads people out of any addiction, whether it is a substance or unskillful activities that bind people to destructive behaviours.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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