samatha or vipassana

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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befriend
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samatha or vipassana

Post by befriend »

How do you know when your doing Samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana? When your just attending to the four foundations of mindfulness.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Samatha reaches it's culmination in the Jhānas or the formless attainments, depending where you want to draw the line. In those states there is no experience of the 5 senses. If we stick to the Jhānas, in those attainments you are totally absorbed in the meditation object. Upon leaving the meditation the mind will then have a natural detachment from sense experience, for a time. When it does insight can occur by wisely reflecting upon the flow of experience, and so insight occurs when you leave that attainment.
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befriend
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by befriend »

How do you practice 4 foundations of mindfulness with only doing vipassana?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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samseva
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by samseva »

befriend wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:44 pm How do you practice 4 foundations of mindfulness with only doing vipassana?
You don't.

Vipassanā is contemplating the three characteristics of existence, of anicca, dukkha and anattā. Samatha meditation is developing concentration/samādhi.

Satipaṭṭhāna/the four foundations of mindfulness, is usually done while not doing formal sitting meditation, during your day-to-day activities.
SarathW
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by SarathW »

befriend wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:44 pm How do you practice 4 foundations of mindfulness with only doing vipassana?
The way I understand the crossroad for Samatha and Vipassana is experienced in the mindfulness of the body. (Kayanupassana)
When we keep our attention on the breath the mind experience the Jhana Nimitta. The first of these is the Parikamma Nimitta.
At this stage, you should make a concerted effort to bring your mind back to the Vipassana contemplating the Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta of this Nimitta. If you do not do this you will enter the Jhanic path.
there are three types of nimitta. The first type is the parikamma-nimitta,which refers to the perception of the object at the very beginning of concentration -it is also known as the "preparatory image or sign." When the mind reaches a weak degree of concentration, a still unsteady and unclear image or sign called the "acquired sign" (uggaha-nimitta) arises. This percept precedes the appearance of an entirely clear and static image called the "counter-image" or "counter-sign" (the patibhaga-nimitta). The appearance of this third type of nimitta signals the appearance of neighbourhood (or access) concentration, the state that precedes full jhanic absorption. Both of these states share the same sign but differ only in the intensity of the component (state) factors. As mentioned in this definition, the counter-part sign is understood as a more refined and clarified version of the sign and is the natural result of heightened awareness and concentration. By knowing these signs, both the student and teacher are helped to assess the success or failure of the corresponding concentration attainments.
https://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/nimitta.html
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auto
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:06 pm In those states there is no experience of the 5 senses. If we stick to the Jhānas, in those attainments you are totally absorbed in the meditation object.
by experience you mean?
These kind of things are seen when person's mind is accompanied by access concentration or absorption,
abhidhamma pdf 163 wrote:In a pa¤ca-dvàra vãthi, the sense-impression is processed only
to the extent to be known roughly whether it is good or bad.
The form, the shape, the detailed features and the name of the
object are not known yet.
Thus, after a pa¤ca-dvàra vãthi, a mano-dvàra vãthi quickly
follows it retaking the sense-object of the pa¤ca-dvàra vãthi as a
past object.
Then the second mano-dvàra vãthi follows suit observing the
new image and the old impression together.
Then the third mano-dvàra vãthi quickly follows again
observing the form and the shape of the sense-object.
Then the fourth mano-dvàra vãthi follows considering the name
associated with the object. If necessary many mano-dvàra vãthis
quickly occur in succession considering the features of the object
in detail and also the time and the place connected with the object
if he has encountered it before.
Only after these many secondary mano-dvàra vãthis, does one
know the object together with form, shape, name and other details.
Considering the fact that cittas can occur at a tremendous
rate of more than a thousand billion times per eye-wink and a
mano-dvàra vãthi contains only about 10 vãthi cittas, more than a
billion vãthis can occur in a fraction of a second. So we can know
the objects we see or hear almost instantly and we even think
that we see and hear simultaneously.
Concentration excludes enjoying the taste of sense object, (in Sutta can read 'unable to indulge in sense pleasures')
abhi.. p160 wrote:Manodvàra vãthi may first be divided
into two classes.
1 Kàmajavana-vàra vãthi—here one of the 29 kàma-javana
cittas takes the function of javana, i.e., enjoying the taste
of the sense-object.
2 Appanàjavana-vàra vãthi— here one of the 26 appanàjavana
cittas takes the function of javana.
Notice the fourth mano dvāra vīthi considers name associated with the object. With that it reminded that in Visuddhimagga, name is the concept and the details(form, shape) are relegated to the property of name's physical support.
visuddhimagga p 177 wrote:29. The colour should not be reviewed. The characteristic should not be given
attention.8 But rather, while not ignoring the colour, attention should be given
by setting the mind on the [name] concept as the most outstanding mental
datum, relegating the colour to the position of a property of its physical support.
That [conceptual state] can be called by anyone he likes among the names for
earth (pathavì) such as “earth” (pathavì), “the Great One” (mahì), “the Friendly
One” (medinì), “ground” (bhúmi), “the Provider of Wealth” (vasudhá), “the Bearer
of Wealth” (vasudhará), etc., whichever suits his manner of perception.
JohnSo
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by JohnSo »

The difference of Samatha and Vipassana is the observation of marks of existence.

In Samatha, we DO NOT observe these 3 marks of existence.

In Vipassana, we DO observe these 3 marks of existence.

And which one do we have to start with? In Yuganadha Sutta, Bhante Ananda states there are 4 ways of people who achieve enlightenment. Samatha the Vipassana. Vipassana then Samatha. Samatha and Vipassana together. And the last is those who just need the Dhamma, no need to exercise.

Nowadays, in my humble opinion, the quality of people is difference with those in The Buddha era. We still need Samatha a little bit then change the track to Vipassana. Just enough concentration for us to start Vipassana to achieve 'Sati' the 7th of the Nible Eightfold Path. Like a train changing track to reaching the last station. Those in The Buddha era can go directly to Vipassana due the merits they have accumulate in their past life. Some even just hearing the word of Dhamma from The Buddha can be awaken. I recalled a story about Santati The Minister (although he killed so many person in war, womanizing & taking liquor but he could be an Arahant upon hearing The Buddha Dhamma ... not to count also Bhante Angulimalawho killed thousand of man). But surely, we need to practice to be awakened.

Good luck on your practice and metta.
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by JohnSo »

The difference of Samatha and Vipassana is the observation of marks of existence.

In Samatha, we DO NOT observe these 3 marks of existence.

In Vipassana, we DO observe these 3 marks of existence.

And which one do we have to start with? In Yuganadha Sutta, Bhante Ananda states there are 4 ways of people who achieve enlightenment. Samatha the Vipassana. Vipassana then Samatha. Samatha and Vipassana together. And the last is those who just need the Dhamma, no need to exercise.

Nowadays, in my humble opinion, the quality of people is difference with those in The Buddha era. We still need Samatha a little bit then change the track to Vipassana. Just enough concentration for us to start Vipassana to achieve 'Sati' the 7th of the Nible Eightfold Path. Like a train changing track to reaching the last station. Those in The Buddha era can go directly to Vipassana due the merits they have accumulate in their past life. Some even just hearing the word of Dhamma from The Buddha can be awaken. I recalled a story about Santati The Minister (although he killed so many person in war, womanizing & taking liquor but he could be an Arahant upon hearing The Buddha Dhamma ... not to count also Bhante Angulimalawho killed thousand of man). But surely, we need to practice to be awakened.

Good luck on your practice and metta.
pegembara
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by pegembara »

To observe the 3 characteristics, one needs a certain degree of samadhi or base to observe properly.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

https://www.scribd.com/document/4688645 ... book-17-4s
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Pondera
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by Pondera »

Read the following
"Regarding this knowledge of destruction, I declare that there is a supporting condition without which it does not arise...[3] What is this supporting condition? Liberation... Liberation has a supporting condition...: Dispassion... Dispassion has a supporting condition...: Disenchantment... Disenchantment has a supporting condition...: Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are... Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are has a supporting condition...: Concentration... Concentration has a supporting condition...: Happiness... Happiness has a supporting condition...: Tranquillity... Tranquillity has a supporting condition...: Rapture...[4] Rapture has a supporting condition...: Joy... Joy has a supporting condition...: Faith...[5] Faith has a supporting condition...: Suffering...[6] Suffering has a supporting condition...: Birth...[7] Becoming... Grasping... Craving... Feeling... Contact... the Six Sense-Bases... Name-and-Form... Consciousness... the (kamma-) formations... Ignorance...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by un8- »

befriend wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:59 pm How do you know when your doing Samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana? When your just attending to the four foundations of mindfulness.
Calm the breath to calm the body, calm thoughts, and calm mind wandering. This is samatha and properly done results in overcoming the 5 hindrances.

Once the 5 hindrances are calm direct your mind to the drawbacks of what currently is happening. The drawbacks refer to seeing the 3 characteristics, but this requires a proper interpretation of anicca. When done properly this results in vipassana.

You can also see the drawbacks pre-samatha which should result in samatha, which is how the Buddha attained jhanas. So seeing the drawbacks of sensual desires while they are present, which is asubha practice.
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by Spiny Norman »

befriend wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:59 pm How do you know when your doing Samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana? When your just attending to the four foundations of mindfulness.
How tight is the focus of your attention?
Tight = samatha = stillness
Wide = vipassana = movement
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bpallister
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by bpallister »

they go together like peanut butter and jelly
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by thomaslaw »

The four stations of mindfulness (cattaro satipatthana), and mindfulness by in- and out-breathing (anapanasati), are not the practice of vipassana (insight meditation). They are the practice of mindfulness (sati) for the development of calm (samadha) and concentration (samadhi).

Regarding how to practice the sati, I think it is better to just follow closely the SN/SA sutta teachings, e.g. SN 47.2 (= SA 622) (cattaro satipatthana) and SN 54.1 (= SA 803) (anapanasati), which indicate clearly body and mind phenomena are closely connected in the practice of sati.

For the practice of vipassana, this is about 'right view' (sammaditthi) for the development of wisdom (panna), leading to the cessation of dukkha 'suffering'. See viewtopic.php?f=24&p=642008#p642008
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Re: samatha or vipassana

Post by frank k »

befriend wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:59 pm How do you know when your doing Samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana? When your just attending to the four foundations of mindfulness.
whenever you're pacifying (passadhi sambojjhanga) the body and the mind, it's going to deepen samatha. Whenever you're using the word 'sampajano' from the satipatthana (4 foundations of mindfulness), that involves pañña and vipassana. Pajānāti (he discerns), also is coming from the same root as pañña and sampajano.
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