Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

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Lucas Oliveira
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Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm



:anjali:
Last edited by bodom on Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Samadhi is Immobility, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Ceisiwr »

Stillness might be a better choice of word.
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Samadhi is Immobility, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:33 pm Stillness might be a better choice of word.
Correct... I will correct the topic title

:anjali:
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by frank k »

stillness is just one component of samadhi, not the entirety of it. Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of 'jhana' and 'samadhi' differ quite drastically from the suttas.
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Ontheway »

"And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."
- Maggavibhanga Suttanta
"The Buddha is like the rising sun; the Dhamma as already stated is like the web of his rays; and the Sangha is like the world rid by him of darkness."

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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by BrokenBones »

I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.

But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.

Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 am I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.

But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.

Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
There is awareness in it. If there weren't then it would be nirodha-samāpatti.
How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it
No one there? Sounds like arguments Vedantists use.
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:38 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 am I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.

But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.

Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
There is awareness in it. If there weren't then it would be nirodha-samāpatti.
How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it
No one there? Sounds like arguments Vedantists use.
Yes.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:05 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:38 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 am I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.

But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.

Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
There is awareness in it. If there weren't then it would be nirodha-samāpatti.
How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it
No one there? Sounds like arguments Vedantists use.
Yes.
You follow Vedanta now?
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

Ādi Śaṅkarācāryaḥ
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Pondera
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:38 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 am I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.

But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.

Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
There is awareness in it. If there weren't then it would be nirodha-samāpatti.
How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it
No one there? Sounds like arguments Vedantists use.
Nirodha Samapatti is the cessation of perception and feeling. Not the cessation of awareness.

The suttas are very clear about this point. Please read AN 11.8

https://suttacentral.net/an11.8/en/suja ... ript=latin
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”
“It could be, Ānanda.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:08 am
Nirodha Samapatti is the cessation of perception and feeling. Not the cessation of awareness.

The suttas are very clear about this point. Please read AN 11.8

https://suttacentral.net/an11.8/en/suja ... ript=latin
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”
“It could be, Ānanda.”
Where does that say it's nirodha-samāpatti?
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

Ādi Śaṅkarācāryaḥ
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Pondera
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:12 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:08 am
Nirodha Samapatti is the cessation of perception and feeling. Not the cessation of awareness.

The suttas are very clear about this point. Please read AN 11.8

https://suttacentral.net/an11.8/en/suja ... ript=latin
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”
“It could be, Ānanda.”
Where does that say it's nirodha-samāpatti?
“And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:38 am

“And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.”
Why does that mean it's nirodha-samāpatti?
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

Ādi Śaṅkarācāryaḥ
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Ontheway
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Ontheway »

See Culavedalla Suttanta
"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."
This is the description of "Nirodha samapatti".
"The Buddha is like the rising sun; the Dhamma as already stated is like the web of his rays; and the Sangha is like the world rid by him of darkness."

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(The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning)
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:11 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:38 am

“And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.”
Why does that mean it's nirodha-samāpatti?
Well. We assume it isn’t.

Then we have Nirodha of sight and things heard and also objects of the mind but not necessarily things smelled tasted or touched.

So, in this sutta where the Buddha is referring to subsequently higher and higher attainments we get this very weird Nirodha of some senses but not others at the end.

So the Buddha has preached the highest attainment to be a weird Nirodha where sight, mental objects, and things heard come to their end but not taste, touch, or smell.

This peculiar Nirodha has never been declared by the Buddha which means that all of the above is an absurdity. So we throw that notion out.

So it must be something else. “Things explored by the mind”. This alludes to the five senses. Therefore, with a little investigation it appears he is speaking about nirodha samapatti.
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