Metta Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Eko Care
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:27 am It is not, if done as taught by the Buddha.

The Buddha says that one should develop mettā towards all beings with the self-abnegating love of a mother to her only son. But Venerable Buddhaghosa recommends a practice of mettā, which goes against the spirit of the Buddha word. What sort of Deliverance of the Heart can that kind of approach lead to? In pervading the directions with thoughts of mettā one has to be aware of one’s position only as a peg in the center with which to survey the world as above, below and all around. Apart from that, the Buddha has never sanctioned a selfish attitude of developing mettā to oneself. The object of mettā is not a group of persons discriminated as one’s dear, not dear or neutral but the totality of living beings which the Buddha has presented as five universals.
Ven. Buddhaghosa says the same thing. He himself says doing metta to self will not lead to Jhana. What he says is having metta to self in the beginning is good as a point of reference to feel and understand how others prefer sukha over dukkha. And he says it is useful to check whether metta has developed up to the expected level. Nothing beyond that I think.

I know above idea is what ve. Nanananda spreaded all over the world and ven. Analayo supported.
Ven. Nananada's teacher ven. Nanarama rejected that view. Most of his students including ven. Dhammajiva rejected it, too.
Even some of ven. Nananada's students didn't accept. They all see no problem with Visuddhimagga.

Most of the forest monks in Sri lanka consider this as an attempt to cherry-pick the Visuddhimagga's mistakes.

Actually the reason behind ven. Nananada's criticisms against Visuddhimagga is not those points.
Reason is Ven. Nanananda had the "Namarupa and Sambhavesi ..etc" unothodox view because he learnt from Western monks since his young years.
Therefore he had to find out and present at least some faults of Visuddhimagga. (in the same way many others do)

You know what?
One day a meditator asked ven. Nananada ""How did bhante you develop metta?".
Ven. Nananada had replied "In the way ven. Buddhgosa said!".
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by befriend »

If you hate yourself which is common in western society metta towards oneself is good. Buddha said you live for the benefit of yourself others and all beings. You are one of the beings in this world shouldn't you deserve happiness Karuna mudita upekkha too?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:53 am You know what?
One day a meditator asked ven. Nananada ""How did bhante you develop metta?".
Ven. Nananada had replied "In the way ven. Buddhgosa said!".
Do you have a source for this, or is this just more of your evangelical fake news conjecture?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:35 am Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:53 am You know what?
One day a meditator asked ven. Nananada ""How did bhante you develop metta?".
Ven. Nananada had replied "In the way ven. Buddhgosa said!".
Do you have a source for this, or is this just more of your evangelical fake news conjecture?
Is this metta ?
Last edited by Eko Care on Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:53 am You know what?
One day a meditator asked ven. Nananada ""How did bhante you develop metta?".
Ven. Nananada had replied "In the way ven. Buddhgosa said!".
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:27 am Do you have a source for this, or is this just more of your evangelical fake news conjecture?
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:40 am Oh! :jedi:
That doesn't look like a trusted source. It would appear that you are fake news. If that :jedi: emoji signifies more anger on your part, then metta-bhavana done in the style of the Buddha may be advantageous to you and to those who endure your fake news and anger alike. Maybe if you're feeling particularly magnanimous, try mudita for those who understand the Suttas. Mudita helps to offset aversion.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:47 am Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:53 am You know what?
One day a meditator asked ven. Nananada ""How did bhante you develop metta?".
Ven. Nananada had replied "In the way ven. Buddhgosa said!".
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:27 am Do you have a source for this, or is this just more of your evangelical fake news conjecture?
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:35 am Do you have a source for this, or is this just more of your evangelical fake news conjecture?
That doesn't look like a trusted source. It would appear that you are fake news. If that :Jedi: signifies more anger on your part, then metta-bhavana done in the style of the Buddha may be advantageous to you and to those who endure your fake news and anger alike.


There is a source, but it is not EBT. It's a later one.


I don't think you are going to believe.

Anyway, Goo luck!
:hug:
Last edited by Eko Care on Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

It appears you have since edited your response...
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:40 am There is a source, but it is not EBT. It's a later one.

I don't think you are going to believe.
So, no source then? I don't care if I believe it, I just wanted to see what the basis of your comment was, if not falsehood, lies and Wrong Speech.

You're still welcome to provide the source if it's more than just your imaginative papañca-sanna-sankha.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:59 am Greetings,
You're still welcome to provide the source ...
How can we believe later material?
Let's Let it go !
:rofl:
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

So, your words were empty, hollow, lies then?

Thank you for confirming.

:thanks:

All the best with your micchā-vaca-magga.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by Eko Care »

Something out of topic:
It seems you are editing what I have written.
then the conversation become difficult and misinformation can be appeared.
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

As Eko Care says, the metta to oneself is a warm-up exercise, and this is clearly explained in the Visuddhimagga. I don't see any reason to be concerned that such warm-up exercises as extending metta to oneself or counting breaths are not specifically mentioned in a sutta. Noone is claiming that they have any particular Dhammic significance, any more than the length of a walking path, or the exact timing of sitting meditation. I also haven't found any suttas suggesting that I do some stretching so that I can sit comfortably. Should I stop doing that?

On the other hand, extending metta to particular people is mentioned in suttas, for example MN21:
Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn21/en/sujato
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Mike
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:17 am Something out of topic:
It seems you are editing what I have written.
then the conversation become difficult and misinformation can be appeared.
No, this too is fake news. I just quote you before you edit your posts. The notes on your posts clearly show you have edited your posts multiple times. It is Wrong Action to not be accountable for one's Wrong Speech.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

I'm no great fan of the Visuddhimagga and I think it gets much too intricate with its Metta instructions, however, the following sutta has some relevance...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

And the whole preamble in the metta sutta is concerned with ones own welfare and emotional well-being.
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:18 am I don't see any reason to be concerned that such warm-up exercises as extending metta to oneself or counting breaths are not specifically mentioned in a sutta. Noone is claiming that they have any particular Dhammic significance, any more than the length of a walking path, or the exact timing of sitting meditation.
No, but unlike counting, or your comment about stretches, both of which are Dhammic-neutral, the self-ishness of Buddhaghosa's metta-bhavana instruction does have adhammic significance in terms of directly opposing the universal, boundless, self-less nature of metta as described in MN21.

It is fine to take refuge in Buddhaghosa if that's one's preference, but people should be honest that this is what they are doing... and they certainly should not brazenly lie about who else is taking refuge in Buddhaghosa, as Eko Care was caught out doing above.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:53 am Ven. Buddhaghosa says the same thing. He himself says doing metta to self will not lead to Jhana.
The above sounds wrong. To reach jhana, the mind must constantly be vigilant to prevent any attachment arising within oneself (called "vossagga"); the effect of which is clearly known due to the happiness growing within oneself (within the mind & body). For example, MN 119 says:
MN 119 wrote:He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered.
The suttas clearly say (SN 48.9 & 10): "Jhana is reached by making letting go (vossagga) the meditation object". This appears contrary to Buddhaghosa, who appeared to teach meditation similar to the Hindu Patanjali.

Ven. Buddhaghosa sounded confused & mixed up. It is the metta generated towards oneself that results in jhana; which then results in the distinction of being a "Brahma Being" because, due to jhana, the mind can perfectly radiate this inwardly developed metta outwards.
Buddhaghosa wrote:For even if he developed loving-kindness for a hundred or a thousand years in this way, “I am happy” and so on, absorption would never arise. But if he develops it in this way: “I am happy. Just as I want to be happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings, too,” making himself the example, then desire for other beings’ welfare and happiness arises in him. And this method is indicated by the Blessed One’s saying:

I visited all quarters with my mind
Nor found I any dearer than myself;
Self is likewise to every other dear;
Who loves himself will never harm another (S I 75; Ud 47).

11. So he should first, as example, pervade himself with loving-kindness. Next after that, in order to proceed easily, he can recollect such gifts, kind words, etc., as inspire love and endearment, such virtue, learning, etc., as inspire respect and reverence met with in a teacher or his equivalent or a preceptor or his equivalent, developing loving-kindness towards him in the way beginning, “May this good man be happy and free from suffering.” With such a person, of course, he attains absorption :roll:

page 293: https://www.urbandharma.org/pdf1/Pathof ... on2011.pdf
S I 75; Ud 47 do not appear to be about jhana but, instead, this is puthujjana Right View with Effluents for those with self-view. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:31 am, edited 10 times in total.
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