Metta Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
BrokenBones
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

I don't see the following as selfish or harmful, merely truthful about how we all are...

'Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
if you love yourself.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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retrofuturist
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:17 am I don't see the following as selfish or harmful, merely truthful about how we all are...

'Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
if you love yourself.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Except that this is puthujjana Right View with Effluents for those with self-view, and not the boundless metta-bhavana that the Buddha taught on the Noble Eightfold Path.
MN117 wrote:"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
Certain teachings are beneficial morality teachings if given to puthujjana, but the same teaching would be regressive for a sekha, since the teachings revolve around what a sekha is seeking to eliminate - the "I am" conceit (asmi-mana).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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robertk
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by robertk »

.
8. First of all it should be developed only towards oneself, doing it repeatedly thus: “May I be
happy and free from suffering” or “May I keep myself free from enmity, affliction and anxiety
and live happily.”
9. If that is so, does it not conflict with what is said in the texts? For there is no mention
of any development of it towards oneself in what is said in the Vibhaòga: “And how does a
bhikkhu dwell pervading one direction with his heart filled with loving-kindness? Just as
he would feel loving-kindness on seeing a dearly loved person, so he pervades all beings
with loving-kindness” (Vibh 272); and in what is said in the Paþisambhidá: “In what five ways
is the mind-deliverance of loving-kindness [practiced] with unspecified pervasion? May all
beings be free from enmity, affliction and anxiety and live happily. May all breathing things
[297] … all who are born … all persons … all those who have a personality be free from enmity,
affliction and anxiety and live happily” (Paþis II 130); and in what is said in the
Mettá Sutta: “In joy and safety may all beings be joyful at heart” (Sn 145). [Does it
not conflict with those texts?]

CHAPTER IX
The Divine Abidings
293
10. It does not conflict. Why not? Because that refers to absorption. But this
[initial development towards oneself] refers to [making oneself] an example. For even if he
developed loving-kindness for a hundred or a thousand years in this way, “I am happy” and so on,
absorption would never arise[
/b]. But if he develops it in this way: “I am happy. Just as I want to be
happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings, too,” making himself
the example, then
desire for other beings’ welfare and happiness arises in him.


We have to look at the whole passage. It is simply reminding that as we want to be happy, so too others.
As Buddhaghosa says " “I am happy” and so on,
absorption would never arise
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robertk
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by robertk »

Just as a note: from Sujin Boriharnwanaket (my teacher for 30 years) This is the Book Metta, Loving Kindness in Buddhism

https://www.dhammahome.com/book_en/topic/11
:
Question: It is stated in the Visuddhimagga that one should begin with extending mettå
towards oneself.
Khun Sujin: In the beginning people are not yet ready to extend mettå to others and therefore
they can take themselves as an example. They can remind themselves that they should treat
others in the same way as they would like to be treated themselves. That is the meaning of
extending mettå towards oneself.
That is the way it has been explained by her - Thailand's eminent Abhidhamma teacher for over 60 years.

Funnily enough years ago when I used to show people this they would claim she was wrong and that people should focus on self when "doing metta".
BrokenBones
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:25 am Greetings,
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:17 am I don't see the following as selfish or harmful, merely truthful about how we all are...

'Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
if you love yourself.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Except that this is puthujjana Right View with Effluents for those with self-view, and not the boundless metta-bhavana that the Buddha taught on the Noble Eightfold Path.
MN117 wrote:"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
Certain teachings are beneficial morality teachings if given to puthujjana, but the same teaching would be regressive for a sekha, since the teachings revolve around what a sekha is seeking to eliminate - the "I am" conceit (asmi-mana).

Metta,
Paul. :)
I suppose it depends on how much credence you give to MN 117... an interesting sutta for many reasons... but that is another subject for another thread.
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mikenz66
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:54 am No, but unlike counting, or your comment about stretches, both of which are Dhammic-neutral, the self-ishness of Buddhaghosa's metta-bhavana instruction does have adhammic significance in terms of directly opposing the universal, boundless, self-less nature of metta as described in MN21.
I'm afraid I remain unconvinced by such arguments. How would anyone understand how to wish for others' happiness if they didn't understand what makes them happy? And why would starting at a small scale be an impediment to developing into boundlessness? That simply doesn't follow.

Mentioning individuals or investigating aspects of one's own happiness (or unhappiness) is not addharmic. It's simply part of the Path. And it was the motivation of the Buddha-to-be (and, I presume, most of those reading this Forum):
Why don’t I seek the unborn, unaging, unailing, undying, sorrowless, uncorrupted supreme sanctuary, extinguishment?’
https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
Furthermore, happiness was a part of the Buddha's awakening process. Speaking about jhāna, he states:
‘I’m not afraid of that pleasure, for it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures or unskillful qualities.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/sujato
In any case, the sutta I quoted talks about particular people (the bandits and the person being cut up). Is that addharmic as well? I any case that sutta certainly contradicts the claim that metta should not ever be directed to specific people, and only "radiated in all directions" (that is, of course, a possible method, mentioned in some other suttas).
We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world...
https://suttacentral.net/mn21/en/sujato
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retrofuturist
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:46 am I'm afraid I remain unconvinced by such arguments.
That's OK. It would be foolish of me to expect otherwise from you, after all this time.
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:46 am How would anyone understand how to wish for others' happiness if they didn't understand what makes them happy?
Easily, because of the universality of the Dhamma... it's called sukha and its causes are explained in the Suttas. If one's wish for "all beings to be happy" is sullied by papañca about each person's hobbies, favourite foods, narratives, friends and such, then it is going to be papañca-bhavana rather than metta-bhavana.
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:46 amIn any case, the sutta I quoted talks about particular people (the bandits and the person being cut up). Is that addharmic as well?
It has been shown that metta should be extended, regardless of particulars, not because of particulars. So it is in the aforementioned Sutta... It is not because they are scumdogs that you extend metta, it's regardless of the fact they are scumdogs that metta is extended. It is for the benefit of the one extending metta to extend metta, as a curative against unwholesome mindstates.

Metta (regardless of, not because you are Mike)
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by Eko Care »

befriend wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:09 am If you hate yourself which is common in western society metta towards oneself is good. Buddha said you live for the benefit of yourself others and all beings. You are one of the beings in this world shouldn't you deserve happiness Karuna mudita upekkha too?
robertk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:47 am
8. First of all it should be developed only towards oneself, doing it repeatedly thus: “May I be
happy and free from suffering” or “May I keep myself free from enmity, affliction and anxiety
and live happily.”
9. If that is so, does it not conflict with what is said in the texts? For there is no mention
of any development of it towards oneself in what is said in the Vibhaòga: “And how does a
bhikkhu dwell pervading one direction with his heart filled with loving-kindness? Just as
he would feel loving-kindness on seeing a dearly loved person, so he pervades all beings
with loving-kindness” (Vibh 272); and in what is said in the Paþisambhidá: “In what five ways
is the mind-deliverance of loving-kindness [practiced] with unspecified pervasion? May all
beings be free from enmity, affliction and anxiety and live happily. May all breathing things
[297] … all who are born … all persons … all those who have a personality be free from enmity,
affliction and anxiety and live happily” (Paþis II 130); and in what is said in the
Mettá Sutta: “In joy and safety may all beings be joyful at heart” (Sn 145). [Does it
not conflict with those texts?]

CHAPTER IX
The Divine Abidings
293
10. It does not conflict. Why not? Because that refers to absorption. But this
[initial development towards oneself] refers to [making oneself] an example. For even if he
developed loving-kindness for a hundred or a thousand years in this way, “I am happy” and so on,
absorption would never arise[
/b]. But if he develops it in this way: “I am happy. Just as I want to be
happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings, too,” making himself
the example, then
desire for other beings’ welfare and happiness arises in him.


We have to look at the whole passage. It is simply reminding that as we want to be happy, so too others.
As Buddhaghosa says " “I am happy” and so on,
absorption would never arise
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:18 am As Eko Care says, the metta to oneself is a warm-up exercise, and this is clearly explained in the Visuddhimagga. I don't see any reason to be concerned that such warm-up exercises as extending metta to oneself or counting breaths are not specifically mentioned in a sutta. Noone is claiming that they have any particular Dhammic significance, any more than the length of a walking path, or the exact timing of sitting meditation. I also haven't found any suttas suggesting that I do some stretching so that I can sit comfortably. Should I stop doing that?

On the other hand, extending metta to particular people is mentioned in suttas, for example MN21:
Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn21/en/sujato

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mikenz66
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:03 am Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:46 am I'm afraid I remain unconvinced by such arguments.
That's OK. It would be foolish of me to expect otherwise from you, after all this time.
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:46 am How would anyone understand how to wish for others' happiness if they didn't understand what makes them happy?
Easily, because of the universality of the Dhamma... it's called sukha and its causes are explained in the Suttas. If one's wish for "all beings to be happy" is sullied by papañca about each person's hobbies, favourite foods, narratives, friends and such, then it is going to be papañca-bhavana rather than metta-bhavana.
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:46 amIn any case, the sutta I quoted talks about particular people (the bandits and the person being cut up). Is that addharmic as well?
It has been shown that metta should be extended, regardless of particulars, not because of particulars. So it is in the aforementioned Sutta... It is not because they are scumdogs that you extend metta, it's regardless of the fact they are scumdogs that metta is extended. It is for the benefit of the one extending metta to extend metta, as a curative against unwholesome mindstates.

Metta (regardless of, not because you are Mike)
Paul. :)
OK, thank you for your opinion. May you be happy.

:heart:
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DooDoot
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:46 am For even if he developed loving-kindness for a hundred or a thousand years in this way, “I am happy” and so on, absorption would never arise
Buddhaghosa appeared definitely wrong. I already quoted sutta about this, such as:
He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. MN 119
Meditation is all about making oneself individually happy. Possibly Buddhaghosa was influenced by Mahayana or even Christianity.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Aloka
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by Aloka »

"Broad View, Boundless Heart" is a little booklet by Ajahn Amaro & Ajahn Pasanno which I enjoyed reading in the past:

Excerpt:
The Brahmaviharas are the qualities of loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity. What is often not sufficiently emphasized is that the brahmaviharas are fundamental to the Buddha’s teaching and practice. I shall begin with the chant called The Suffusion of the Divine Abidings. I find this chant very beautiful. It is the most frequent form in which the brahmaviharas are mentioned in the discourses of the Buddha.....

https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/ ... ess-heart/

:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:03 am Just as a note: from Sujin Boriharnwanaket (my teacher for 30 years) This is the Book Metta, Loving Kindness in Buddhism

https://www.dhammahome.com/book_en/topic/11
:
Question: It is stated in the Visuddhimagga that one should begin with extending mettå
towards oneself.
Khun Sujin: In the beginning people are not yet ready to extend mettå to others and therefore
they can take themselves as an example. They can remind themselves that they should treat
others in the same way as they would like to be treated themselves. That is the meaning of
extending mettå towards oneself.
That is the way it has been explained by her - Thailand's eminent Abhidhamma teacher for over 60 years.

Funnily enough years ago when I used to show people this they would claim she was wrong and that people should focus on self when "doing metta".
Hi Robert, I'm finding your last sentence a little cryptic. What were your interlocutors suggesting when they said that 'people should focus on self when "doing metta"'? Did they suggest that the point was to make themselves happy?

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robertk
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by robertk »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:48 am
robertk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:03 am Just as a note: from Sujin Boriharnwanaket (my teacher for 30 years) This is the Book Metta, Loving Kindness in Buddhism

https://www.dhammahome.com/book_en/topic/11
:
Question: It is stated in the Visuddhimagga that one should begin with extending mettå
towards oneself.
Khun Sujin: In the beginning people are not yet ready to extend mettå to others and therefore
they can take themselves as an example. They can remind themselves that they should treat
others in the same way as they would like to be treated themselves. That is the meaning of
extending mettå towards oneself.
That is the way it has been explained by her - Thailand's eminent Abhidhamma teacher for over 60 years.

Funnily enough years ago when I used to show people this they would claim she was wrong and that people should focus on self when "doing metta".
Hi Robert, I'm finding your last sentence a little cryptic. What were your interlocutors suggesting when they said that 'people should focus on self when "doing metta"'? Did they suggest that the point was to make themselves happy?

:heart:
Mike
Hi Mike
as I remember what they did when 'doing metta meditation' was to focus on how deserving of love they are and try to manufacture warm feelings. Once this self love was apparent they move on to others.

Not the right way as I see it.
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mikenz66
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:22 am as I remember what they did when 'doing metta meditation' was to focus on how deserving of love they are and try to manufacture warm feelings. Once this self love was apparent they move on to others.

Not the right way as I see it.
Thanks. There is some interesting stuff in that book. I like what she says about needing to be careful about rushing to wish metta to all. It's very easy for this practice to descend into going through motions with a vague wish for all beings to be happy, which is missing the mark completely.

As she says:
If you cannot yet have metta for a disagreeable person, you cannot extend metta
at all.
I think that this is related to the sutta I quoted above:
"We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person [such as the low-down bandits that are cutting us up...]. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world..."
https://suttacentral.net/mn21/en/sujato

She quotes: SN10.4 (alternatively translated at https://suttacentral.net/sn10.4/).
...For him whose mind ever by night and day
In harmlessness, in kindness takes delight,
Bearing his share in love for all that lives,
In him no hate is found toward anyone.
[Alternative translation at https://suttacentral.net/sn10.4/:
"... with love for all living creatures---they have no enmity for anyone.”]
That's a high bar, and one that I think that is obscured by translations such as "kindness, friendliness, goodwill...". I've even heard people say explicitly that they are lowering the bar: "Having love for someone you hate is hard, so just wish them well...".

Of course, wishing people well is better than hating them, so it is a small step in the right direction...

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Eko Care
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Re: Metta Meditation

Post by Eko Care »

When he discriminates between The four:
41. The characteristic of it is this. Suppose this person is sitting in a place with
a dear, a neutral, and a hostile person, himself being the fourth; then bandits
come to him and say, “Venerable sir, give us a bhikkhu,” and on being asked
why, they answer, “So that we may kill him and use the blood of his throat as an
offering;” then if that bhikkhu thinks, “Let them take this one, or this one,” he
has not broken down the barriers. And also if he thinks, “Let them take me but
not these three,” he has not broken down the barriers either. Why? Because he
seeks the harm of him whom he wishes to be taken and seeks the welfare of the
other only. But it is when he does not see a single one among the four people to
be given to the bandits and he directs his mind impartially towards himself and
towards those three people that he has broken down the barriers. Hence the
Ancients said:
42. When he discriminates between
The four, that is himself, the dear,
The neutral, and the hostile one,
Then “skilled” is not the name he gets,
Nor “having amity at will,”
But only “kindly towards beings.”
Now, when a bhikkhu’s barriers
Have all the four been broken down,
He treats with equal amity
The whole world with its deities;
Far more distinguished than the first
Is he who knows no barriers.
43. Thus the sign and access are obtained by this bhikkhu simultaneously
with the breaking down of the barriers. But when breaking down of the barriers
has been effected, he reaches absorption in the way described under the earth
kasióa without trouble by cultivating, developing, and repeatedly practicing
that same sign.
At this point he has attained the first jhána, which abandons five factors,
possesses five factors, is good in three ways, is endowed with ten characteristics,
and is accompanied by loving-kindness. And when that has been obtained,
then by cultivating, developing, and repeatedly practicing that same sign, he
successively reaches the second and third jhánas in the fourfold system, and the
second, third and fourth in the fivefold system. [308]
Visuddhimagga-Nanamoli
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