Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

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Tennok
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Tennok »

Let's make it more clear.

Someone takes a chemical substance. The effects of this substance may include hallucinations, both visual and verbal, feelings of bliss, transpersonal experiences, but also fear, paranoia, etc. Encounters with gods, demons and aliens. Or even witnessing of the Nazi atrocities - that's what some of Grof's LSD patients had experienced.

The consciousnes is strongly altered.

Then how can anyone claim, it's not intoxication? I mean booze and drugs do similar things to mind, albeit they lack spiritaul diemension...most of time. You can hallucinate after opium. You can have a delirium tremens as an alcoholic and meet non existing creatures, just like those Ayahuasca worshippers. I know examples from literature, when cocaine or heroine users wrote about clarity of vision, meaning of life etc, as eloquently as Cause and Effect and his dizzy gurus. Addiction or lack of it is not a criterium here. It's clear and restrained mind, or it's opposite.

Using drugs to make a progress on the Path quicker, or to reach some deeper state - whatever one calls it - is wrong. And preaching intoxication on a Buddhist forum, while advocating that it isn't intoxication, is even more wrong. It's just harmful to the others.

Last thing, a funny trivia. Psychodelics, namely psylocibine, were popularized in the US scholary world in the year 1957, by a mycologist Robert Gordon Wasson, who did his research on mushrooms in Mexico. Indigenious Mexican civilization, that really adored psilocibine use, was that of Aztecs. Their religion and rituals were haeavily influenced by drug use and it was - what a coincidence - one of the most bloody cults ever known, with thousends of people being slain or flayed alive during psychedelic rituals.
Ancient wisdom is sometimes difficult to stomach :smile:
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Tennok wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:43 am Let's make it more clear.

Someone takes a chemical substance. The effects of this substance may include hallucinations, both visual and verbal, feelings of bliss, transpersonal experiences, but also fear, paranoia, etc. Encounters with gods, demons and aliens. Or even witnessing of the Nazi atrocities - that's what some of Grof's LSD patients had experienced.

The consciousnes is strongly altered.

Then how can anyone claim, it's not intoxication? I mean booze and drugs do similar things to mind, albeit they lack spiritaul diemension....
It is an altered state of consciousness that manifests the mind, and such visions can occur during this.
Alcohol does not produce these effects or anything resembling.

The state has far more overlap with jhana than with alcohol intoxication.
Visions also can occur during jhana practice, so should this also be banned?

How could anyone seriously follow Stan Grofs work and not come to see their value if used rightly?
Tennok wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:43 am Using drugs to make a progress on the Path quicker, or to reach some deeper state - whatever one calls it - is wrong. And preaching intoxication on a Buddhist forum, while advocating that it isn't intoxication, is even more wrong. It's just harmful to the others.
Then don't use them. No one is asking you to or preaching use of them.
At the same time your categorizing of all experiences whether alcohol or cocain to substances like LSD is false misinformation and harmful.
For those those who have and do use psychedelics effectively as a spiritual practice these discussions can be useful.

The default view should be not to use them and just to meditate which is what I advocate. But I also will not allow false misinformation about the state produced from people like you, or to say they can have no benefit for some on the path when they can.
Tennok wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:43 am Last thing, a funny trivia. Psychodelics, namely psylocibine, were popularized in the US scholary world in the year 1957, by a mycologist Robert Gordon Wasson, who did his research on mushrooms in Mexico. Indigenious Mexican civilization, that really adored psilocibine use, was that of Aztecs. Their religion and rituals were haeavily influenced by drug use and it was - what a coincidence - one of the most bloody cults ever known, with thousends of people being slain or flayed alive during psychedelic rituals.
Ancient wisdom is sometimes difficult to stomach :smile:
This is again a lie. They were not 'slain during psychedelic rituals'.

Psilocybin mushrooms were called 'flesh of the gods' by the ancient Mesoamerican Aztecs and it was a spiritual and healing use.


http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wo ... ect20b.htm

Our modern culture also hardly is not bloodthirsty following Christianity, communism, facism etc and global mass murder.

Psychedelics have spiritual use in ancient Greece (Eleusinian mysteries and Kykeon), Iran and India (Soma), Egypt and many cultures and were used religiously as visionary substances.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

I saw this last night, but didn't respond, because I wanted to give you time to actually put together a defense. You have not, and seem to think that your hasty post about Ven Sarana is something that even approaches "proof." It does not.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:05 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 am Don't debate me then. Ignore what I say in response, but substantiate your own wild claims for the sake of your own argumentation on this thread that ayahuasca and other psychedelics are or can be profound aids on the Buddhist path and also can facilitate the concentrations and samadhis of the Buddhist sages and can maybe facilitate the attainment of Nibbana.

"Proof" would be having these experiences match the experiences of any Buddhist master who does not do these drugs and attains these states in the traditional way, regardless if we believe that he has or had authentic attainment. That conversation can happen after. Compare it also with the instructions of the Buddha and the descriptions of these states that he gives in the Pali Canon or in any other traditional Buddhist scripture. Compare the process of taking the drug with the process of attaining these states either in scripture or according to any Buddhist teacher who does not do psychedelics.
We can start then with the video by Ven. Sarana posted above.

- Meditation teaches one to control the mind, and this cannot be achieved simply through use of psychedelics.

- His view however is that some of the states attained can overlap with those that occur during meditation. This is a view supported by many who have experience with both

- Therefore my view is that both done together can be mutually reinforcing and beneficial.

- For phenomenological analysis both myself and Ceisiwr have basically said the account given above matches some of what we see in Buddhist texts (that I infer by his calling it a 'lofty claim of experiencing some level of awakening'). However we differ as to the authenticity of the experience.

- We can infer that Ven. Sarana also views some such accounts and experiences as phenomenologically matching, however unlike Ceisiwr, but like myself views them as genuine by his saying there can be an overlap (although he did not address whether they could lead to awakening). However his issue was the lack of mind development required and accessibility of the experiences without the drug.

- We can view that both myself and by implication Ven. Sarana consider that a well trained mind could make use of such experiences as there is some overlap with those that occur naturally during meditation, as long as one did not become reliant on the drug (I note he did not advocate them, but merely did not deny there can be some experiential overlap between the states).
But this does not defend your claims at all. It merely states that this Ven Sarana is open to them. It's a bunch of inferences about what may or may not be possible, and nothing is established as similar at all.

So far, the DMT user's high and subsequent "insight" are not established as similar to a Buddhist attainment. You haven't yet been able to compare the DMT high to the words of a Buddhist master who doesn't use drugs or accounts preserved in scripture.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:08 amThis is again a lie. They were not 'slain during psychedelic rituals'.
It is not a lie. The Aztec and Maya alike would ritually murder the high people at the top of a grand staircase. In the case of the Aztecs, they would roll the decapitated head down down stairs. You, seemingly, will brand anything a lie if it contradicts your personal narratives or makes psychedelic drugs look bad in any way.
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Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Tennok »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:08 am
This is again a lie. They were not 'slain during psychedelic rituals'.

Psilocybin mushrooms were called 'flesh of the gods' by the ancient Mesoamerican Aztecs and it was a spiritual and healing use.
Mushrooms were used during rituals such as gladiator sacrifice for a god Xipe Totec:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Xipe-Totec

Whole stadions of psychonauts would be watching the ritual slaughter, including flaying. But Aztecs had many rituals. During mass sacrifices both victims and the audience were drugged, albait the victims were given some tranqualizers, to keep them calm. Psychodelics were for the priest elite and the people watching. It's very well documented , becouse many priests sutivived Cortez's invasion and spoke to the Spanish scholary monks. That doesn't mean that Aztecs didn't do drugs in private. It was one of the most "psychedelic" cultures, and one of the most bloodthirsty. Fascinating culture, too, but that's another story.

I recommend this book to check is a lie, or not. It was the primary source of my statement:

https://www.amazon.pl/Aztecs-Interpreta ... 0521400937

And what was a my other "lie"?

Btw, I didn't say you lie. If that sounded like that, then I'm sorry. You are just clearly wrong about the drugged Nibbana, but hey, drugs can be very convincing for some. That's the problem, they are super cool.

I don't deny that people can experience mystical insights when doing drugs. Hell, they can even benefit from that. I just deny the agenda, that psychedelic drugs are safe and it's good and skilfull for us, Buddhists, to use them.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'm not familiar with the worshippers also being on a trip. Certainly, before they did things like rip out his heart and behead him, the sacrificial victim would be high on a psychedelic brew, according to most reconstructions of that strain of Mesoamerican religion. It would be interesting to see a quotation from one of those two texts.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Tennok »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:18 pm I'm not familiar with the worshippers also being on a trip. Certainly, before they did things like rip out his heart and behead him, the sacrificial victim would be high on a psychedelic brew, according to most reconstructions of that strain of Mesoamerican religion. It would be interesting to see a quotation from one of those two texts.
I don't have a book with me, sorry. The psychical copy I own is really far away now. But according to Clendinen, during some rituals everybody - including the audience - was on mushrooms. They've used other drugs, too. And various combinations. Some of receipies are lost now. And, Cause and Effect is right here, they called mushrooms Flesh of the Gods, or Little Humans and really loved them. They used them on many occasions.

They believed that people dying on alters feed the gods, keep the sun on the sky etc. And, as far as understand it, mushrooms gave them this supernatural emphaty, to participate in it.

This is another good book about the Aztec religions, and their psylocibine rituals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mexic ... ilizations
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:46 am

Well thankfully the author of the report who is a Buddhist and people like myself as well as numerous practitioners out there, do not simply rely on omissions and vague extensions of generic prohibitions on alcohol and related intoxicants in the Canon to draw our conclusions on these important tools.

Neither do we, when encountering profound and significant insights from said experiences as described above (the conclusions of which are fully aligned with the dhamma), make such penetratingly deep and broad epistemological and phenomenological statements about all such experiences and their value to the effect of "I doubt it".

The next time any discussion on their benefits is published or qualitative analysis is done, we should surely make sure that your insights are widely known as well to all in the field as an authoritative counter argument: "I doubt it".
By doubt is based on those who claim to have had awakening experiences whilst using these substances, yet are still clearly chained to the most basic of fetters. That is to say, their claims do not match their actions. Furthermore, no argument has been presented as to how these experiences are in line with mindfulness, clear comprehension, mastery of the senses and Jhāna. Perhaps you would like to set out how taking drugs leads one to developing such mastery of the mind that the person can

“If they wanted to, a mendicant with psychic powers who has mastered their mind could determine this tree trunk to be nothing but earth. Why is that? Because the earth element exists in the tree trunk. Relying on that a mendicant with psychic powers could determine it to be nothing but earth. If they wanted to, a mendicant with psychic powers who has mastered their mind could determine this tree trunk to be nothing but water. … Or they could determine it to be nothing but fire … Or they could determine it to be nothing but air … Or they could determine it to be nothing but beautiful … Or they could determine it to be nothing but ugly. Why is that? Because the element of ugliness exists in the tree trunk. Relying on that a mendicant with psychic powers could determine it to be nothing but ugly.”

which is an extension of mastering the senses

‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending."

When on acid, or any other drug, you aren't in control of the senses. So, how do you square that circle?
- For phenomenological analysis both myself and Ceisiwr have basically said the account given above matches some of what we see in Buddhist texts (that I infer by his calling it a 'lofty claim of experiencing some level of awakening'). However we differ as to the authenticity of the experience.
Oh lord not another phenomenologist. I did say lofty, but that was a poor choice of words on my part. I simply meant to say grand. That said, the author is clearly mashing a lot of concepts together in order to make sense of their experience. That doesn't mean they actually relate to the Dhamma, even if we can find similar words there.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Tennok wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:12 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:08 am
This is again a lie. They were not 'slain during psychedelic rituals'.

Psilocybin mushrooms were called 'flesh of the gods' by the ancient Mesoamerican Aztecs and it was a spiritual and healing use.
Mushrooms were used during rituals such as gladiator sacrifice for a god Xipe Totec:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Xipe-Totec

Whole stadions of psychonauts would be watching the ritual slaughter, including flaying. But Aztecs had many rituals. During mass sacrifices both victims and the audience were drugged, albait the victims were given some tranqualizers, to keep them calm. Psychodelics were for the priest elite and the people watching. It's very well documented , becouse many priests sutivived Cortez's invasion and spoke to the Spanish scholary monks. That doesn't mean that Aztecs didn't do drugs in private. It was one of the most "psychedelic" cultures, and one of the most bloodthirsty. Fascinating culture, too, but that's another story.

I recommend this book to check is a lie, or not. It was the primary source of my statement:

https://www.amazon.pl/Aztecs-Interpreta ... 0521400937

Sacrificial rituals may have occurred, but it's false to say that psychedics were the main part of this or it was common use, or to somehow imply that the drugs caused them as if causing a psychosis. Then you try to equate them with modern users which is deceitful by saying 'audiences of psychonauts watched the slaughter'.

It's like saying "masses of people were slaughtered by samurai on Zen meditation, so Zen causes psychosis"

You are taking one out of context example and not providing the whole picture.

The main use of psilocybin in Mesoamerica was a shamanic healing tool.
There is also a history of some of the earlier books to try to paint the native American cultures in a bad light, to in a way 'justify' the mass slaughter in the millions by Europeans during the colonization and extermination period when they came to the new world. However again this is going a bit off topic.

This review looks at their use in depth.

https://www.elsevier.es/en-revista-neur ... 0814001527

So again, if we look past your dramatic characterization we see that by far the main use of psilocybin in Mesoamerica was for peaceful shamanic and spiritual use.
"Archaeological, ethnohistorical, and ethnographic evidence show that throughout history, pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures used hallucinogenic substances in magical, therapeutic, and religious rituals. These substances are considered entheogens since they were used to promote mysticism and communication with divine powers. The purpose of using these substances was to enter a trance and achieve greater enlightenment and open-mindedness...

Mesoamerican myths and religions emphasise the role of the priest or shaman as a mediator between the physical and the spiritual worlds, and this situation promoted the use of entheogens in religious ceremonies and prophecy. Shamans, intermediaries between the natural and supernatural realms, would consume numerous psychoactive substances to undertake their shamanic journeys.

This would begin when the shaman's spirit left the natural world and continued to wander the supernatural world, making contact with the spirits in order to acquire knowledge about plants, diagnose diseases, or ensure a good harvest or rainy season, before finally returning to his body in the physical world. Both Mesoamerican and Andean iconography offer numerous depictions of the shamanic journey and trance state induced by hallucinogens."
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:53 pm My doubt is based on those who claim to have had awakening experiences whilst using these substances, yet are still clearly chained to the most basic of fetters.
That is to say, their claims do not match their actions.
This is a fair criticism and it has been addressed, namely that psychedelics could give one a glimpse of higher states or even the summit without becoming a person worthy of that or requiring the personal transformation necessary on the path.
This is a risk, which is why I am only advocating for people who are meditators and already living a somewhat spiritual and ethical life to be in the best position to use them well and not rely on them to do the long term work on oneself that still needs to be done.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:53 pm Furthermore, no argument has been presented as to how these experiences are in line with mindfulness, clear comprehension, mastery of the senses and Jhāna. Perhaps you would like to set out how taking drugs leads one to developing such mastery of the mind that the person can

“If they wanted to, a mendicant with psychic powers who has mastered their mind could determine this tree trunk to be nothing but earth. Why is that? Because the earth element exists in the tree trunk. Relying on that a mendicant with psychic powers could determine it to be nothing but earth. If they wanted to, a mendicant with psychic powers who has mastered their mind could determine this tree trunk to be nothing but water. … Or they could determine it to be nothing but fire … Or they could determine it to be nothing but air … Or they could determine it to be nothing but beautiful … Or they could determine it to be nothing but ugly. Why is that? Because the element of ugliness exists in the tree trunk. Relying on that a mendicant with psychic powers could determine it to be nothing but ugly.”
Why are you quoting a passage relating to psychic powers and transformation of material elements? It seems a strange choice to try to lllustrate whatever point you are attempting to make.

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:53 pm When on acid, or any other drug, you aren't in control of the senses. So, how do you square that circle?
By meditating while experiencing the heightened and expanded perceptions.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:53 pm I did say lofty, but that was a poor choice of words on my part. I simply meant to say grand. That said, the author is clearly mashing a lot of concepts together in order to make sense of their experience. That doesn't mean they actually relate to the Dhamma, even if we can find similar words there.
You said he was claiming some level of awakening, which you are now trying to backtrack from. So that is enough to demonstrate the similarity from a descriptive point of view of what he is claiming to some of what we see written on dhamma, aside from judging the authenticity of said claim. This is the first point to establish.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:23 am Are we talking about a person actually having tasted nibbāna, or having a sense of tasting nibbāna?
So I have a question about stream entry, on the premise that some of the Nibbana/perfect emptiness/deathless experiences reported may indeed be some kind of stream entry fruition attainments that are being accessed through the substances switching the brain on and somehow allowing them to connect with it.

The experiences are after all still relatively rare, not everyone has access to them and not everyone who does them has these experiences.

So for stream entry a person will have at most seven more births amongst humans or devas before awakening.
Now, is it the case that in each birth, the individual will be virtuous from the beginning of each subsequent life once they have attained the stream, or can they go through a period of not even being into the dhamma before they 'rediscover' it?
One of the issues pointed out is that many who report these experiences of 'Nibbana' on psychedelics are themselves often or dubious virtue and practice.

So is it possible that a stream winner could be highly virtuous and accomplished in meditation, but in his next birth he initially is not, although he is already a stream winner but he doesnt know it yet in that lifetime?
Maybe he didn't even adhere to Buddhism initially in that life and is only of modest virtue, but later in life he may come to the dhamma and the practice as per his prior steam winner inclination in a previous life. But before this he simply lives a normal life, but he still accesses higher attainments through such substances by virtue of being a steam winner even though he is unaware of his previous life development attaining stream entry.

I had considered this as a possible explanation if such experiences were genuine tastes of suprmundane states or even the goal, even though said individuals were by conventional standards not particularly developed at the time they occured.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:43 am
Why are you quoting a passage relating to psychic powers and transformation of material elements? It seems a strange choice to try to lllustrate whatever point you are attempting to make.
The above comes to be when one has fulfilled the eight bases of mastery. How does taking acid lead to the development of seeing the repulsive in the non-repulsive and the non-repulsive in the repulsive? How does taking acid lead to the development of mindfulness, clear awareness and sense restraint which you are yet to define?
By meditating while experiencing the heightened and expanded perceptions.
Sorry, but when you are on drugs you do not control your reactions to sense experience.
You said he was claiming some level of awakening, which you are now trying to backtrack from. So that is enough to demonstrate the similarity from a descriptive point of view of what he is claiming to some of what we see written on dhamma, aside from judging the authenticity of said claim. This is the first point to establish.
I'm not backtracking on anything. The way I read it, the person in question was trying to claim they have attained some level of what they perceive Buddhist awakening to be. I doubt said person has awakened according to the Dhamma.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Sam Vara »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:27 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:23 am Are we talking about a person actually having tasted nibbāna, or having a sense of tasting nibbāna?
So I have a question about stream entry, on the premise that some of the Nibbana/perfect emptiness/deathless experiences reported may indeed be some kind of stream entry fruition attainments that are being accessed through the substances switching the brain on and somehow allowing them to connect with it.

The experiences are after all still relatively rare, not everyone has access to them and not everyone who does them has these experiences.

So for stream entry a person will have at most seven more births amongst humans or devas before awakening.
Now, is it the case that in each birth, the individual will be virtuous from the beginning of each subsequent life once they have attained the stream, or can they go through a period of not even being into the dhamma before they 'rediscover' it?
One of the issues pointed out is that many who report these experiences of 'Nibbana' on psychedelics are themselves often or dubious virtue and practice.

So is it possible that a stream winner could be highly virtuous and accomplished in meditation, but in his next birth he initially is not, although he is already a stream winner but he doesnt know it yet in that lifetime?
Maybe he didn't even adhere to Buddhism initially in that life and is only of modest virtue, but later in life he may come to the dhamma and the practice as per his prior steam winner inclination in a previous life. But before this he simply lives a normal life, but he still accesses higher attainments through such substances by virtue of being a steam winner even though he is unaware of his previous life development attaining stream entry.

I had considered this as a possible explanation if such experiences were genuine tastes of suprmundane states or even the goal, even though said individuals were by conventional standards not particularly developed at the time they occured.
I'm not sure about the exact nature of the rebirths of the sotapanna, and I don't think the Buddha talked about the subject with that degree of specificity. That being so, what you suggest seems possible, of course, but remains in the realm of mere fruitless speculation. As supramundane attainments are (IIRC) unmistakable, it must anyway be the case that people over-estimate their attainment rather than the converse. So a genuine taste of a supramundane state remains the sticking point here.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Panegalli »

I made this post in 2014, it's quite funny to see the reaction, I no longer think I "attained","realized" or even came close to Nibbana, I was quite euphoric because of the effect of Ayahuasca and genuinely thought I was enlightened, an euphoric FOOL (I'm still a fool, only a little bit less foolish). I've been practicing the mahasi noting technique since the episode and I've been more clear-minded. What makes me happy about all this is to see how much I matured since then. I do have to admit that the ayahuasca experience motivated me to start a contemplative life, but I no longer use or recomend using anything like that, bringing mindfulness to your everyday mundane life is much more beneficial than using some substance like that, meditation progress is a slow and uncomfortable process, there are no shortcuts.

I would also like to apologize to everyone here for making such a claim of being enlightened, I hope everyone takes my apologies, I'm quite embarrassed and ashamed by my behavior.


P.S. : I'm not even CLOSE to being a sotapana
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Panegalli wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:58 pm I made this post in 2014, it's quite funny to see the reaction, I no longer think I "attained","realized" or even came close to Nibbana, I was quite euphoric because of the effect of Ayahuasca and genuinely thought I was enlightened, an euphoric FOOL (I'm still a fool, only a little bit less foolish). I've been practicing the mahasi noting technique since the episode and I've been more clear-minded. What makes me happy about all this is to see how much I matured since then. I do have to admit that the ayahuasca experience motivated me to start a contemplative life, but I no longer use or recomend using anything like that, bringing mindfulness to your everyday mundane life is much more beneficial than using some substance like that, meditation progress is a slow and uncomfortable process, there are no shortcuts.

I would also like to apologize to everyone here for making such a claim of being enlightened, I hope everyone takes my apologies, I'm quite embarrassed and ashamed by my behavior.


P.S. : I'm not even CLOSE to being a sotapana
:goodpost:

That's ok. What matters is that you now have an honest assessment of your situation, and are no longer using drugs and are meditating. Well done.
meditation progress is a slow and uncomfortable process, there are no shortcuts.
Slow and steady wins the race. Meditations is like body building. It takes time and constant effort to build the muscle.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SteRo
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by SteRo »

Panegalli wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:58 pm I do have to admit that the ayahuasca experience motivated me to start a contemplative life, ...
Hmh ... long term positive effect of a drug? :P
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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