Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:54 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:26 am
I am going to comment that I believe some of these psychedelics such as LSD and Ayahuasca (DMT) can be enlightening agents if combined with meditation insight practices. However they can be harmful if misused also so how you use it is key.
Why didn’t the Buddha recommend them then? It’s not like he didn’t know about the practice of using drugs for so called spiritual insights.
The Pali Canon was written down after 500 years of oral transmission and is one of 18 schools. We don't know for sure if anything was ever mentioned about them that didn't make the final edit. There is I believe a brief mention of the 'Soma ritual' in the Pali canon without much details.

However it wouldn't surprise me if nothing was mentioned since he would have seen that it's a double edged sword. Many would have likely been harmed through irresponsible use or being unable to cope with the experience thus bringing disrepute to the teachings and causing more harm. So silence on the issue without any direct reference seems the best way, while making precepts against obvious harmful intoxicants like alcohol which are a totally different category and which cloud mindfulness, but letting one use their own judgement regarding these substances.

They are a hidden and not widely accepted radical augmenting tool to meditation and religious practice and they have always been that way and should remain so.
Who knows the origin of them but they are connected to the deathless dimension in some way or how I believe.

Feel entirely free to ignore or dismiss what I just wrote, and I am not recommending them my views are based on experience but speculative none the less.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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SDC
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by SDC »

Psychedelics can clear the whole field of manifested defilements and bring blissful peace, but it cannot stop those defilements from returning.

This sutta is a great reminder that there can be bliss on either end of ignorance. Fortifying yourself on the sensual side of things is not a wise move.

A good line to remember that does appear frequently:

“This is the one-way path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method, for the realization of Nibbāna, that is, the four establishments of mindfulness.” -SN 47.18

Not, “… and also psychedelics.”
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
maniture_85
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by maniture_85 »

I personally had advantages using psychedelics, but i guess it cannot give the same results to everybody.
Set and setting, and intention, are extremely important. The main way it helped me in the practice is that it gave similar results of a meditation retreat. Benefits lasts for a certain amout of time after the substance is eliminated ( days or more ). As results i mean the ability to feel sensations in the body: i'm not actually able to see big differences between the development through practice and through psychedelics, but i'm far to be sure about it. Still not sure it can, as some consequence, increase equanimity.
On the other side, i can say for sure that it can bring experience that brings wisdom and change.
Please note i've used that for other medical reasons and i've always taken sub-hallucinogenic doses.
It happened to me to enter the stream when i have taken cannabis, after doing some very compassionate actions and contemplating the delight of helping others. In that episode i also experimented Equanimity for the first time. If you enter the stream, you will know it about yourself. In a few weeks or months you will feel yourself largely changed and, far more importantly, you will make direct experience of it. Reading your post, i think it's not the case. Make a good use of your experience anyway!
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Dan74 »

SDC wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:23 pm Psychedelics can clear the whole field of manifested defilements and bring blissful peace, but it cannot stop those defilements from returning.

This sutta is a great reminder that there can be bliss on either end of ignorance. Fortifying yourself on the sensual side of things is not a wise move.

A good line to remember that does appear frequently:

“This is the one-way path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method, for the realization of Nibbāna, that is, the four establishments of mindfulness.” -SN 47.18

Not, “… and also psychedelics.”
:goodpost:

at least in my experience and understanding (could be wrong, as always).

Not to rain on anyone's parade and not to deny that in some circumstances, psychedelics coupled with deep practice could possibly help, but without, like SDC said, I strongly suspect any benefit or sublime state will be temporary.

The reason being that while the experience could wipe the slate clean of some accretions, their root causes remain and will reassert themselves in time. The deep-seated ignorance and habits have not gone anywhere.
_/|\_
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by SDC »

Dan74 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:38 pm The reason being that while the experience could wipe the slate clean of some accretions, their root causes remain and will reassert themselves in time. The deep-seated ignorance and habits have not gone anywhere.
That has been my experience.

Defilements cannot be worked out on account of brief and intense access to remorse, empathy, love or overwhelming purity. These experiences can, without a doubt, neutralize both the intensity of contact and emotional buildup behind certain experiences, but like you say, they do not work out the root. I suppose someone who has done the laborious and repetitive task of developing virtue, sense restraint and mindfulness could, in theory, take a substance and during that experience be freed from certain fetters and become a sotapanna, but it would not have been on account of that substance. It would’ve been on account of the years of work creating that opening for knowledge to arise.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by mjaviem »

In my humble opinion, anyone who thinks using drugs is similar to or can help with practice has gotten it all wrong. The path is only one and it is a difficult one. It requires effort and diligence. It is not about gaining experiences but about getting rid of lust and hatred and becoming wise as our friend SDC mentioned previously.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SDC wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:23 pm Psychedelics can clear the whole field of manifested defilements and bring blissful peace, but it cannot stop those defilements from returning.

This sutta is a great reminder that there can be bliss on either end of ignorance. Fortifying yourself on the sensual side of things is not a wise move.

A good line to remember that does appear frequently:

“This is the one-way path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method, for the realization of Nibbāna, that is, the four establishments of mindfulness.” -SN 47.18

Not, “… and also psychedelics.”
The four establishments of mindfulness do not have to be in contradiction to use of psychedelics.
The purpose is to do them together.
If psychedelics act as an enhancer then it is like giving yourself access to a more powerful microscope or telescope.
I think that microdosing (where there are no overt effects just an enhancement of awareness) alongside meditation may be another option for some to gain a breakthrough.

There have also been many obvious benefits for some people who were never spiritual before and even came to Buddhism after tripping by having the insight into past lives and rebirth, existance of devas and psychic abilities etc. So it's clear it has benefits for some which would have been unlikely to come about otherwise even as just an initial doorway.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Sam Vara
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:58 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:23 pm Psychedelics can clear the whole field of manifested defilements and bring blissful peace, but it cannot stop those defilements from returning.

This sutta is a great reminder that there can be bliss on either end of ignorance. Fortifying yourself on the sensual side of things is not a wise move.

A good line to remember that does appear frequently:

“This is the one-way path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method, for the realization of Nibbāna, that is, the four establishments of mindfulness.” -SN 47.18

Not, “… and also psychedelics.”
The four establishments of mindfulness do not have to be in contradiction to use of psychedelics.
The purpose is to do them together.
If psychedelics act as an enhancer then it is like giving yourself access to a more powerful microscope or telescope.
I think that microdosing (where there are no overt effects just an enhancement of awareness) alongside meditation may be another option for some to gain a breakthrough.

There have also been many obvious benefits for some people who were never spiritual before and even came to Buddhism after tripping by having the insight into past lives and rebirth, existance of devas and psychic abilities etc. So it's clear it has benefits for some which would have been unlikely to come about otherwise even as just an initial doorway.
What about this possibility. That those people who came to Buddhism after tripping did indeed believe that they had insight into past lives and rebirth, devas and psychic abilities. That belief was enough to bring them to Buddhism. Which is of course beneficial. But it was entirely erroneous as a belief, and they had no insight at all into any of these things; they were just tripping.

And the same applies to microdosing. How would we know that it was not entirely useless except as a placebo?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... tudy-finds
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

What if they were brought to Buddhism by the conviction, born of drug-induced temporary madness, that they were "enlightened," despite the fact that it obviously isn't true? What if they never grow out of their fake Bodhi? "Buddhism" is a vanity game to many who are led to believe they are "special."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by mjaviem »

Or special as stream enterers.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:11 am
What about this possibility. That those people who came to Buddhism after tripping did indeed believe that they had insight into past lives and rebirth, devas and psychic abilities. That belief was enough to bring them to Buddhism. Which is of course beneficial. But it was entirely erroneous as a belief, and they had no insight at all into any of these things; they were just tripping.

How can you be so sure that the insights they attained were not genuine, when phenomenologically they are often indistinguishable from what we read of mystics and various other accounts?
How for that matter, can you know that certain meditative visions and insights are not likewise erroneous?

They are both based upon personal experience.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am What if they were brought to Buddhism by the conviction, born of drug-induced temporary madness, that they were "enlightened," despite the fact that it obviously isn't true? What if they never grow out of their fake Bodhi? "Buddhism" is a vanity game to many who are led to believe they are "special."
If the 'drug induced temporary madness' led to a sense of boundless kindness towards all beings, which could be developed afterwards even if it wore off, and if it led to a convincing sense of the reality of past lives and this belief remained after the effects wore off, then this 'drug induced temporary madness' state would be beneficial and aligned with the dhamma.

It is some kind of temporary jhana like state is all.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

I disagree. This "drug-induced maddness" would be fooling yourself into thinking you've attained these things to appease your own ego and your own need to be an attainer of these things, not using the proper methods, but using unwholesome shortcuts that don't actually work. They just impair your ability to know the difference. That's all.

I did quite a bit of LSD, magic mushrooms, and DMT at York University. I'm familiar with how these things work. They confuse your mind. Some people are fooled into thinking that their mind is sharper, that their thoughts are deeper, and that their personhood is more thorough, on or after drugs. It isn't. When I used to smoke copious amounts of marijuana, there was a brief period in my early 20s when I had convinced myself that I was smarter high. All my thoughts seemed deeper. I seemed more creative as a young musician. I seemed more relaxed and "normal," like I didn't have to pretend to make friends with people. Problem is, my thoughts weren't deeper. They were more confused while I was high.

When you are high on one of these substances, your thoughts whirl around in your head like chaos, but your mind is so slowed and compromised that it can't follow them. Consequently, it seems like you are smarter, like you are realizing things you've never realized before. It seems like your thoughts have "ascended," or your mind has "reached a new level," as they whirl around chaotically and you can't follow them. In reality, you are simply in awe of your own mind and unable to see it clearly. The muddled vision of your own mind, because it is so muddled, can be mistaken for anything. IMO, the only thing that psychedelics can "teach you" is that your own mind has a lot more going on inside of it than you normally notice, and that the smooth coordination of your mind can be seriously messed with and your perceptions serious altered for a few hours. You can hear light and see sound when the streams of information corresponding to those perceptions get muddled and intermixed in your mind. That, IMO, is the only real lesson to be got from drugs. They teach you how much you don't understand your own mind, if you're ready for that lesson. They teach most people, who are not prepared to be humble, who are not prepared to critically self-examine after the trip, who are expecting to meet DMT angels, who are expecting their trip to take them to metaphorically (or literally!) "meet the Buddha," absolutely nothing. They don't meet the Buddha during it, but they can't tell that they didn't because they were so high.

I used to work with a lady at Tim Hortons who thought that smoking copious amounts of marijuana improved the ability of the mind to multitask. She was wrong, IMO, and was not a particularly good worker. She couldn't multitask to save her life. She's still at Tim Hortons likely, and likely she still believes that she does "performance enhancing" drugs.

There's a reason why ayahuasca makes you vomit on the floor. It's not good for you. When you are bedazzled by the psychedelics, this normal vomiting can seem like supernormal purging of things other than vomit. The trouble with psychedelics is that they hinder your ability to realize that they aren't good for you.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:30 pm ~
Well I am likewise experienced with LSD and psilocybin mushrooms and I have reached the opposite conclusion. They are not 'hallucinations' they are altered and sometimes deeper perceptions of reality. They can definitely be used with meditation.

How you use them is key. You say you did them a lot at uni and in the context of being a musician. You also mention cannabis as a comparison which is totally different and a different category which I would not consider beneficial generally. People who try to say psychedelics aren't useful often point to cannabis but they should be left as a different discussion.

Your descriptions strike me as entirely recreational which is why you have had experiences that were not meaningful. Your descriptions of synesthesia are fitting for a musician and perhaps your general impression reflects simply your state of being at that age.

Using them seriously as part of a meditative or spiritual practice is very different and the experiences you have are very different.
I have no reason to doubt some of the insights attained such as on the reality of rebirth.

Psychedelics essentially manifest the mind which is why they are great tools.
In fact you mention one of the problems you had that 'thoughts swirl around like chaos,but the mind is too slow to follow them'.
This is precisely why they are best used with a stabilized meditative mind not recreationally which is how you were using them. If you have moved on from them then that's fine but I am sure you would have a different experience using them in this setting and meditating.
I don't disagree that conceit and ego can be unwanted side effects but these can be dealt with just as they would in any other circumstances.

I always recommend being systematic and methodical with their use, instead of just leaving it at speculations from haphazard use consult the professionals in the field who know of their value and how best they can augment meditation practice - for those whom it may be suitable not everyone.
I have persued it like this more seriously since my initial forays at uni like yours which is why I likely have a different perspective, I would recommend anyone serious about the subject to do the same.
The go to person for a useful framework is the work of Stan Grof.

51uG9hjr4YL._SX330_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Sam Vara »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:42 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:11 am
What about this possibility. That those people who came to Buddhism after tripping did indeed believe that they had insight into past lives and rebirth, devas and psychic abilities. That belief was enough to bring them to Buddhism. Which is of course beneficial. But it was entirely erroneous as a belief, and they had no insight at all into any of these things; they were just tripping.

How can you be so sure that the insights they attained were not genuine, when phenomenologically they are often indistinguishable from what we read of mystics and various other accounts?
How for that matter, can you know that certain meditative visions and insights are not likewise erroneous?

They are both based upon personal experience.
I can't be sure that drug-induced experiences are not genuine insights, nor can I be sure that other accounts are genuine. That's why I referred to a possibility. But given that many experiences of mystics and drug-users are wildly divergent as to the nature of "higher reality", etc., we do know that not all such insights are genuine in the sense of being veridical. Moreover, I have had such "insights" myself, which I firmly believed in at the time, but now consider to have been erroneous. So have many other people.

So being based on personal experience is no great recommendation.
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