Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

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mjaviem
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by mjaviem »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:31 pm Monks use cow urine for medicinal purposes (which is perceived poisonous under normal circumstances).
...
I didn't know cow urine can help in this way. They say accupunture is also good as a medicine. Perhaps. I don't know. But if we talk about dukkha the only medicine is the N8F.
Bundokji wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:31 pm ...
Buddhist faith and siddartha's faith are not mutually exclusive. The dhamma is not a false dilemma.
I can only speak in reference to the suttas and there it says:
AN 10.61 B. Bodhi wrote: ... Faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for faith? It should be said: hearing the good Dhamma...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Bundokji »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:54 pm I can only speak in reference to the suttas and there it says:
AN 10.61 B. Bodhi wrote: ... Faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for faith? It should be said: hearing the good Dhamma...
Referencing suttas is good, except when it is misused:
And how is mindfulness of death developed and cultivated to be very fruitful and beneficial, to culminate in the deathless and end with the deathless? As day passes by and night draws close, a mendicant reflects: ‘I might die of many causes. A snake might bite me, or a scorpion or centipede might sting me. And if I died from that it would stop my practice. Or I might stumble off a cliff, or get food poisoning, or suffer a disturbance of bile, phlegm, or piercing winds. Or I might be attacked by humans or non-humans. And if I died from that it would stop my practice.’ That mendicant should reflect: ‘Are there any bad, unskillful qualities that I haven’t given up, which might be an obstacle to me if I die tonight?’
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:53 am
Again you are conflating the application with the means. You can use psychedelics to delight in the external senses or you can use them to go deeper into the mind.
I have posted reports of use in this way which you have ignored and are clearly nothing to do with chasing sense desire but are aligned with some types of meditative goals.
My argument is that using acid is itself already delighting in sense experience. Or, in other words, if you practiced sense restraint you wouldn't give into using acid. Based on the mind and the idea of using acid, mind consciousness arises. The meeting of 3 is contact. Sense restraint stops there. Pursuing sense desire is intending towards that idea because of it's attractive signs and features. Next comes the action, then the experience and then delight in it. Now, delight in feelings/experience is clinging. With clinging as condition...
No, there is no evidence he rejected or endorsed the practice.
I can't see him talking openly on their use though even if it could be beneficial for some due to probably the image it fostered amongst laity.
The Jhānas and the formless attainments were well known and practiced by other ascetics as part of their spiritual path. The Buddha adopted these practices into his own system as he saw that they can be used as part of the path to awakening. Mindfulness and indeed the 5 spiritual faculties were also know by other ascetics and used by them, as were the 4 brahmavihārās. The Buddha also adopted all of these practices as part of his teachings, as they too were useful for liberation. Now ingesting drugs for spiritual insights wasn't unknown at the time. Brahmins used to drink soma as part of their spiritual practices. That the Buddha did not adopt this practice is telling, and it puts it alongside other practices the Buddha rejected such as extreme asceticism or ritual sacrifice. It's not like the laity would be horrified if the Buddha and his followers used drugs either. No doubt the laity knew that the Brahmins were ingesting soma for their practices. What we find instead then is the Buddha teaching that the basic moral code a Buddhist can live by involves not ingesting alcohol or intoxicating substances. If a Buddhist is aiming for nibbāna then they should also practice mindfulness, clear comprehension and sense restraint. None of that allows for taking any kind of drug, unless its for medical reasons. In order to awaken you have to see dhammas as they arise and fall clearly, you have to see their conditionality clearly. You can't do that when your mind is distorted by drugs. It's an illusion of insight, nothing more.
Certainly though if he was against them outright he could have included injunctions saying it was wrong rather than relying on people having to stretch the fifth precept against alcohol,
Based on this argument it's ok for Buddhists to use cocaine.
Anyway I have my views based on much experience and they are no hindrance to me but a great benefit on the occasions they are used, which is usually only every few months or years.
There is another aspect to this. As a Buddhist you should be obeying the law of the land, so if said drugs are illegal where you are then you should not be using them. The Buddha was very keen on social stability and on not getting into trouble with the authorities, as long as the laws do not force one to violate Dhammic principles.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:04 pmBrahmins used to drink soma as part of their spiritual practices.
I may be wrong, but I think that already by the time of the Buddha "Soma" was a mythohistorical elixir no longer cultivated in India. I've heard that it was never actually cultivated en masse in India, the plant being native to elsewhere. I need to figure out what paper or lecture I'm remembering! The gist was that Soma becomes more mythologized and magical and conflated with the ambrosia of the gods as memory of the real fluid fades.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:04 pmBrahmins used to drink soma as part of their spiritual practices.
I may be wrong, but I think that already by the time of the Buddha "Soma" was a mythohistorical elixir no longer cultivated in India. I've heard that it was never actually cultivated en masse in India, the plant being native to elsewhere. I need to figure out what paper or lecture I'm remembering! The gist was that Soma becomes more mythologized and magical and conflated with the ambrosia of the gods as memory of the real fluid fades.
Ok I could be wrong on that one then.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Not sure if this helps but the Bhagavad Gita seems to know it's just a plant
Those who perform actions (as described in the three Vedas), desiring fruit from these actions, and those who drink the juice of the pure Soma plant, are cleansed and purified of their past sins.
Chapter 9, verse 20
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

There are verses like this, but I'm unsure if Soma is the best translation. It's by Ven. Sujato.
Then, knowing the meaning of this, on that occasion the Buddha recited these verses:
Atha kho bhagavā etamatthaṁ viditvā tāyaṁ velāyaṁ imā gāthāyo abhāsi:

“Horse sacrifice, human sacrifice,
“Assamedhaṁ purisamedhaṁ,
the sacrifices of the ‘stick-casting’,
sammāpāsaṁ vājapeyyaṁ;
the ‘royal soma drinking’, and the ‘unbarred’—
Niraggaḷaṁ mahārambhā, Variant: Niraggaḷaṁ mahārambhā → vājapeyyaṁ niraggaḷaṁ; mahāyaññā mahārambhā (bj, sya-all, km); vājapeyyaṁ; niraggaḷaṁ mahārambhā (pts1ed); vājapeyyaṁ niraggalaṁ mahāyaññā mahārambhā (pts2ed)

these huge violent sacrifices yield no great fruit.
na te honti mahapphalā.

The great sages of good conduct
Ajeḷakā ca gāvo ca,
don’t attend sacrifices
vividhā yattha haññare;
where goats, sheep, and cattle
Na taṁ sammaggatā yaññaṁ,
and various creatures are killed.
upayanti mahesino.

But the great sages of good conduct
Ye ca yaññā nirārambhā,
do attend non-violent sacrifices
yajanti anukulaṁ sadā;
of regular family tradition,
Ajeḷakā ca gāvo ca,
where goats, sheep, and cattle,
vividhā nettha haññare;
and various creatures aren’t killed.
Etaṁ sammaggatā yaññaṁ,
upayanti mahesino.
https://suttacentral.net/sn3.9/en/sujat ... ript=latin

If it is Soma it suggests it was still being drunk during his time.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by mjaviem »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:00 pm Referencing suttas is good, except when it is misused:
...
I'm trying to show you why you are wrong in believing drugs can help people to have faith in reference to the buddhist goal and why they are not helpful while you are trying to find records about hippie monks under the influence.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Bundokji »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:30 pm I'm trying to show you why you are wrong in believing drugs can help people to have faith in reference to the buddhist goal and why they are not helpful while you are trying to find records about hippie monks under the influence.
Well, i simply highlighted how they can be beneficial and how they can be harmful. To acknowledge the Buddhist goal as the highest does not mean falling into false equivalences (only this is true, everything else is worthless).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:15 pm Not sure if this helps but the Bhagavad Gita seems to know it's just a plant
Those who perform actions (as described in the three Vedas), desiring fruit from these actions, and those who drink the juice of the pure Soma plant, are cleansed and purified of their past sins.
Chapter 9, verse 20
I'll try to find a better source than this if I'm able:
Of what we can gather from textual descriptions, soma had long stalks, tawny in colour and fifteen leaves (although the Vedas record this plant as being leafless). Some point out that it was possibly a creeper (somalatha is a candidate for this, still found in the Himalayas) with a bulb but it couldn’t have been the source of the juice as it is toxic to humans and, strangely enough, white ants. How one found that out will perhaps remain the bigger mystery.

The secreted juice was almost milky in nature and obtained by the pressing (and even pounding) of the stalks and stems. It was common to mix this with milk and honey. Although it grew commonly and widely in the Himalayan reaches, nobody knows where it came from or where it was native to. But it was known to be big on the trade circuit; so it could have just as easily arrived in someone’s backpack and then found its root here with much commercial success, which then would have further boosted its popularity as a commodity on the trade route. What does remain are entire strings of songs (well, prayers more correctly) offering apologies to the gods for the loss of this plant and its marvellous elixir. Rhubarb has been cited as a substitute, but that again, wasn’t a native plant.
(Magandeep Singh, A short history of India's drinking culture, extract from the Daily O magazine)

He's a sommelier, not the most academically qualified, and it's an book extract presented as an opinion piece in a magazine/journal. He is citing established scholarship on the decline of soma production, cultivation, and consumption during the Bronze Age (it seems the plant might have gone extinct during the Bronze Age before the Buddha's time).
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:17 pm
Today I learnt something :reading: :jumping:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:33 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:17 pm
Today I learnt something :reading: :jumping:
I only wish I could find the scholarship Mr. Singh is referencing.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by ToVincent »

Soma is just ephedra.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:04 pm
My argument is that using acid is itself already delighting in sense experience. Or, in other words, if you practiced sense restraint you wouldn't give into using acid. Based on the mind and the idea of using acid, mind consciousness arises. The meeting of 3 is contact. Sense restraint stops there. Pursuing sense desire is intending towards that idea because of it's attractive signs and features. Next comes the action, then the experience and then delight in it. Now, delight in feelings/experience is clinging. With clinging as condition...
Your understanding of sense restraint is off I think, but that's a different subject. It's about not proliferating at any of the sense gates, not simply not activating them. The key is not clinging to the experience.

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:04 pm
Based on this argument it's ok for Buddhists to use cocaine.
No it isn't, and no one classes addictive stimulants like cocain with psychedelics.
It seems you are fond of generalized overly simplistic categorization to support your arguments.
The Buddha did not speak at all about these mind manifesting substances that can contribute to attainment of some of the outcomes.of his path, which is strange. If it was an issue we would expect something more clear but we see only vague reference to the Soma ritual without specifics of what he refers to. It would have been nice for a reference in the texts on the subject but we find almost nothing and intoxicants like alcohol are totally different although the comparison with alcohol.to drugs like cocaine is valid.

LSD, DMT, Psilocybin, have far far more in common with a Jhana state than they do with alcohol intoxication.

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:04 pm
There is another aspect to this. As a Buddhist you should be obeying the law of the land, so if said drugs are illegal where you are then you should not be using them. The Buddha was very keen on social stability and on not getting into trouble with the authorities, as long as the laws do not force one to violate Dhammic principles.
The precepts are about ethical action. I don't consider psychedelics to be covered under the 5th precept as they are non addictive and non intoxicating (they can increase, not reduce mindfulness and clarity).
That they are illegal is an unjust law and therefore not one I regard as worthy of adhering to on that matter which is my decision.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:23 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:53 am Certainly though if he was against them outright he could have included injunctions saying it was wrong rather than relying on people having to stretch the fifth precept against alcohol, to trying to cover substances that give some people a clear sense of having tasted nibbana and seen past lives etc
The phrasing here is interesting. Are we talking about a person actually having tasted nibbāna, or having a sense of tasting nibbāna? Is the use of the adjective "clear" representing veridicality or merely a subjective sense of clarity?

If the former, then it is a form of question-begging. If the latter, then it raises David Hume's point that if someone tells you that God spoke to them in a dream, then all they are reporting is that they dreamed of God speaking to them. And what do we make of a person under the influence of drugs (or NDE, etc.) who have a clear sense of having experienced God? Wouldn't that be at odds with Buddha Dhamma?
Like I said I don't want to get drawn too much into debate about this or risk it becoming egoic centered with some on both sides in talking about 'a complementary path/practice' or on the other side 'defending the accepted orthodox and traditional means only'.

I would say though that from the perspective of inner vision saying it is actual and veridical is basically the same as saying it appears that way.
How could one know apart from ones own experience and comparison with others accounts? The comparison and phenomenological analysis is key therefore.
The argument against would appear to be the means it was achieved being inconsistent with beliefs about possibility of attainment even if very temporary.

I would find the idea though far more strange that a substance could trigger reliably an amazing mystical simulation of these things, than if it was accessing the real thing.

As to NDE's and accounts of God, again it is their experience and there is consistency in the descriptions. Whether that is due to conditioning and interpretation from a Judeo-Christian framework is another matter. 'The perfect emptiness' would no doubt be seen as an apophatic description of God from that perspective for example.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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