Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:56 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:57 pm Yes, a recognition of their sacred use is common amongst people who use it in this way. And your point is what? I use the dhamma as my framework for meditation and integrate psychedelic use in this context, but even those doing said 'enegy work' or 'shamanic healing' are utilizing it in a way far beyond anything you have ever described using it for.
It speaks volumes that you feel the need to improve upon what the Buddha taught.
You mean like abhidhamma?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:56 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:57 pm Yes, a recognition of their sacred use is common amongst people who use it in this way. And your point is what? I use the dhamma as my framework for meditation and integrate psychedelic use in this context, but even those doing said 'enegy work' or 'shamanic healing' are utilizing it in a way far beyond anything you have ever described using it for.
It speaks volumes that you feel the need to improve upon what the Buddha taught.
You mean like abhidhamma?
The various Abhidhammas sought to explain the Dhamma. How right or wrong they were in doing that is another matter, but that project is different to what you are suggesting here. To you the NEFP isn't enough. Mindfulness, clear awareness, sense restraint and Jhāna are not enough. Instead a new element is required, namely drugs. The Buddha made no allowance for using such substances. He would have known about them, given his wisdom, but he never promoted them as part of the path to awakening. To you this is deficient, despite monks and nuns being able to practice diligently for over 2000 years without them. You might say it's a fast track way to awakening, but I'm sceptical of easy fixes when it comes to the Dhamma. More likely, IMO, people looking for a fast way to nibbāna are simply acting under the influence of the āsavā.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:13 pm The various Abhidhammas sought to explain the Dhamma.
Because the Buddha couldn't explain it himself?
They go even further, coming up with new theories of reality he never taught like 'momentariness'. However this is an aside and off topic but still it comes under "tying to improve on what the Buddha taught".
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:13 pm To you the NEFP isn't enough. Mindfulness, clear awareness, sense restraint and Jhāna are not enough. Instead a new element is required, namely drugs.
No, I have nowhere said psychedelics are required on the path. They are optional for some and can lead to a jhana like state and general functional enhancement that can be useful in the practice.

If you gave me only one choice in life, to learn of the 8-fold path or to have a lifetime supply of LSD but never learn of it I would choose to know of the path. But since I can integrate both with beneficial results I choose to do so.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:13 pm The Buddha made no allowance for using such substances. He would have known about them, given his wisdom, but he never promoted them as part of the path to awakening.
We have covered this ground several times already. They are significant enough and totally different from alcohol in their effects to have been worthy of a mention either way but we find nothing in the Canon. Thus you are left to your speculations as I have mine.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:13 pm To you this is deficient, despite monks and nuns being able to practice diligently for over 2000 years without them. You might say it's a fast track way to awakening, but I'm sceptical of easy fixes when it comes to the Dhamma.
We don't know what or how all monks and nuns have practiced over the last 2000 years.
However religious use of psychedelics long predates the Buddha. I don't see the Buddha's path as negating the benefits of their use just as I don't see the substances as a replacement for meditation and mindfulness.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:46 pm
Because the Buddha couldn't explain it himself?
They go even further, coming up with new theories of reality he never taught like 'momentariness'. However this is an aside and off topic but still it comes under "tying to improve on what the Buddha taught".
No. Because suttas don't explain everything, or because they were attempting to refute arguments from their perspective from other religions and philosophies that weren't dealt with in the texts.
No, I have nowhere said psychedelics are required on the path. They are optional for some and can lead to a jhana like state and general functional enhancement that can be useful in the practice.

If you gave me only one choice in life, to learn of the 8-fold path or to have a lifetime supply of LSD but never learn of it I would choose to know of the path. But since I can integrate both with beneficial results I choose to do so.
Then no Buddhist should use them. You use them because the NEFP isn't enough, for you.
We have covered this ground several times already. They are significant enough and totally different from alcohol in their effects to have been worthy of a mention either way but we find nothing in the Canon. Thus you are left to your speculations as I have mine.
Yes they are different, but both intoxicate.
We don't know what or how all monks and nuns have practiced over the last 2000 years.
However religious use of psychedelics long predates the Buddha. I don't see the Buddha's path as negating the benefits of their use just as I don't see the substances as a replacement for meditation and mindfulness.
No Buddhist tradition has promoted drug use. In fact quite the opposite, so yes we do know how the different schools recommended practice. The Buddha would have known about psychedelics. He didn't include them as part of his path, which you just admitted is complete in of itself. Your drug use then is nothing but a distraction.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:59 pm No Buddhist tradition has promoted drug use. In fact quite the opposite, so yes we do know how the different schools recommended practice. The Buddha would have known about psychedelics. He didn't include them as part of his path, which you just admitted is complete in of itself. Your drug use then is nothing but a distraction.
The question is, why does it seem to bother you so much on my use of psychedelics as part of my practice of dhamma? I am quite sure in my discernment and that they can be helpful. You disagree. Ok so we leave it there. Just like I think abhidhamma is a later corruption and introduces concepts not taught by the Buddha, but I leave you to it.

But no, you want to try to insist without any basis that 'psychedelics are just the same as alcohol and the Buddha would have forbidden them, he just forgot to include any mention of substances which instead of making people drunk with slurred speech, give many a convincing sense of touching a timeless, selfless state and have been shown to have therapeutic healing potential'.

Why don't you deconstruct what's 'wrong' in your view (good luck) with this profoundly produced insight for example, not based on dogma or devotion to what you think should be or your prediliction to Sola scriptura et commentarie, but the insight into itself as befitting an experiential religion like Buddhism.


"The DMT death and rebirth experience had just confirmed what I already knew deep down. The purpose of life is to make life better for oneself and all other beings. This gradual incremental process of making life better a tiny bit at a time culminates in the divine bliss felt just after the break up of the body and psyche.

This state of un-become perfection is the attractor at the end of cosmic time. To recognize it and to maintain it requires the systematic development of good mental qualities like concentration and awareness. It also requires the performance of compassionate actions in the physical world. These efforts, made diligently enough shall deliver the individual and the collective of all life in the cosmos into the divine state of perfection."


https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=96614

:anjali:
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:21 pm
The question is, why does it seem to bother you so much on my use of psychedelics as part of my practice of dhamma? I am quite sure in my discernment and that they can be helpful. You disagree. Ok so we leave it there. Just like I think abhidhamma is a later corruption and introduces concepts not taught by the Buddha, but I leave you to it.
It doesn't bother me. We are having a conversation. What I'm disagreeing with is your claim that someone can practice Dhamma whilst using drugs. What you do yourself though is up to you.
But no, you want to try to insist without any basis that 'psychedelics are just the same as alcohol and the Buddha would have forbidden them, he just forgot to include any mention of substances which instead of making people drunk with slurred speech, give many a convincing sense of touching a timeless, selfless state and have been shown to have therapeutic healing potential'.
It's not without basis.
Why don't you deconstruct what's 'wrong' in your view (good luck) with this profoundly produced insight for example, not based on dogma or devotion to what you think should be or your prediliction to Sola scriptura et commentarie, but the insight into itself as befitting and experiential religion like Buddhism.
Despite these lofty claims I doubt said person has uprooted the āsavā, despite thinking they have reached some level of awakening.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:29 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:21 pm
Why don't you deconstruct what's 'wrong' in your view (good luck) with this profoundly produced insight for example, not based on dogma or devotion to what you think should be or your prediliction to Sola scriptura et commentarie, but the insight into itself as befitting an experiential religion like Buddhism.
Despite these lofty claims I doubt said person has uprooted the āsavā, despite thinking they have reached some level of awakening.
Well thankfully the author of the report who is a Buddhist and people like myself as well as numerous practitioners out there, do not simply rely on omissions and vague extensions of generic prohibitions on alcohol and related intoxicants in the Canon to draw our conclusions on these important tools.

Neither do we, when encountering profound and significant insights from said experiences as described above (the conclusions of which are fully aligned with the dhamma), make such penetratingly deep and broad epistemological and phenomenological statements about all such experiences and their value to the effect of "I doubt it".

The next time any discussion on their benefits is published or qualitative analysis is done, we should surely make sure that your insights are widely known as well to all in the field as an authoritative counter argument: "I doubt it".


I like Ven Sarana's description here and agree with it. Meditation is about learning to control the mind. He acknowledges that there may be some overlap with LSD and meditative experiences at some points, but that we will not get this mastery of the mind without meditating. Which is why I don't advocate using these substances unless one has a regular meditation practice.

"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:46 amNeither do we, when encountering profound and significant insights from said experiences as described above (the conclusions of which are fully aligned with the dhamma), make such penetratingly deep and broad epistemological and phenomenological statements about all such experiences and their value to the effect of "I doubt it".
Do you mean this blog that you linked to here?
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:21 pm"The DMT death and rebirth experience had just confirmed what I already knew deep down. The purpose of life is to make life better for oneself and all other beings. This gradual incremental process of making life better a tiny bit at a time culminates in the divine bliss felt just after the break up of the body and psyche.

This state of un-become perfection is the attractor at the end of cosmic time. To recognize it and to maintain it requires the systematic development of good mental qualities like concentration and awareness. It also requires the performance of compassionate actions in the physical world. These efforts, made diligently enough shall deliver the individual and the collective of all life in the cosmos into the divine state of perfection."


https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=96614

:anjali:
It sounds like a quack's mad ravings.
I had been holding onto two DMT rocks for a couple of months, waiting for the right time to use them. I had tried to smoke DMT twice before but with only marginal results. The first two experiences produced only mild psychedelic effects: electric sensations flowing through the body and visuals a kin to LSD or mushrooms. My ego had been left completely intact in both cases, and I had never really left the rooms from which I attempted to launch.

Early in the evening, I decided to attempt a new launch. My roommate Echo was DJing a party somewhere and my house was otherwise empty. Just after dark, I set up my zone, stringing my hammock up between two trees in my back yard. I lit two sticks of incense at the base of the two trees and settled into my hammock. I had decided to smoke the DMT using my Vapor Genie by placing the smaller, 60 mg, rock directly on the VG screen. In the minutes before launch, I attempted to meditate, following my breath; this was very difficult, as my mind kept bringing me back to the idea of the approaching trip. Many report that DMT is very intense, and as I had taken mushrooms and LSD at what I considered high doses several times before, I had at least some shadow of an idea what I was getting myself into.

As I held the VG up to my face, my heart rate increased noticeably. I became short of breath and felt quite nervous. I began to hit the VG, but my lungs protested against the very slow hot stream of air and demanded oxygen. I stopped mid-inhale and gasped for air. Holding the lighter back to the VG I began to hear the subtle sound of the solid DMT popping and whistling its way into a liquid, and the sizzling sound of vaporization. I continued hitting the VG, but never really felt a concentrated hit. After about 60 seconds of hitting the pipe, I laid back in my hammock. I felt only very mild effects, not even close to what I had felt on my previous two attempts. Somewhat disappointed, I pulled out my glass pipe and took a few tokes of cannabis before falling into a peaceful slumber.

I slept for a couple of hours, waking to a rekindled desire to attempt a launch. I like to consider myself a truth seeker, willing to weather the uncertainty of alternative and expanded awareness in the attempt to contact and understand a more fundamental reality. Given an adequately prepared set, an appropriate setting, the right tools, and the right chemical key, a curious psychonaut will seize the opportunity for learning, in spite of his nerves and reservations about the unknown.

With newfound resolve, I took my VG inside to reload. Upon taking it apart I found a black gooey substance caked all over the screen, effectively clogging the pipe. After removing the screen, I found the same gunk running down into the stem of the pipe. The rock I had placed in the bowl was completely gone, but had evidently liquified and ran through the VG screen. I replaced the screen with a new one, laid a thin bed of cannabis and placed the larger, 170 mg rock of yellow-white DMT upon it. I hoped the cannabis would catch the liquified DMT before it ran through the screen and away from my heat source.

During this process, my roommate Echo returned home from his DJ gig. I told him I was preparing to relaunch, and I asked him to serve as my guide. I've had mushroom and LSD experiences by myself several times before, and I knew I could very likely handle this experience alone, but deep down something told me that securing Echo as my guide was the right thing to do.

We went out to the back yard, and I relit two new sticks of incense at my hammock zone. Echo sat in a chair facing the side of my hammock. The cherried incense glowed orange through the darkness, and I was comforted by its familiar aroma. I settled back into my hammock, covering my lower half with a blanket and holding the VG and lighter up to my face. The nerves came back. My heart rate increased and I felt starved for oxygen. Again, I took a few minutes to consciously slow down and focus on my breathing. I was a rocket quietly posed on a launch pad, awaiting the inevitable ignition sequence.

'See you in eternity,' Echo said as I flicked my lighter and held the flame to the VG. Again, I could hear the popping and sizzling of the vaporizing rock, but this time I got a concentrated vapor hit, complete with that subtle plastic taste I had encountered on my previous attempts. I exhaled the white vapor and went back for a second toke. My body began to buzz with the familiar electricity. This buzz kept growing in intensity through the hit, and by the time I exhaled and began the third toke, it was growing with such momentum, I knew this attempt would succeed. I continued inhaling, despite the electricity now surging through my body. The third toke gave me what felt like the thickest hit yet, and as I blew out the column of plastic vapor, I fell softly back into my hammock, body and mind disintegrating into a billion disconnected pieces, scattered across the face of oblivion.

….
After body and psyche are broken down and blasted out in all directions, there is only emptiness. This is the clear light of the unformed, the un-become. There is in fact no experience here that the psyche can preserve in memory. This state coincides with the death of the ego and a discontinuity of recorded experience. It would be impossible for me to say how much Earth time elapsed during this state of freedom; later Echo would tell me the silence lasted around 10 minutes.

The first flash of experience is a recognition of falling out of this emptiness. Only after slipping out of the void can any conscious recognition occur. As the clear light slipped away, I recognized it as sheer perfection. It is identified as divine bliss; a state completely devoid of imperfections, impermanence, or dissatisfaction of any kind. It lacks any hint of duality or ego and has a distinct impersonal quality.

Just after falling out of the light, I felt I had an opportunity to return to it. This window is quite small however, since the fall out of the light is like the falling of an object toward the Earth. At first the object falls slowly; enough energy directed upward may overcome the downward motion and return the object to its original position, but after some time, the object gathers too much momentum and there is no reversing the fall.

The psyche pulls at one in the same way that gravity pulls a falling object. The initial flash of recognition is produced by the first shred of the psyche reinstating itself. As this piece solidifies, other pieces begin to solidify around it. As more pieces of the psyche fall into place, the self-reconstruction process accelerates like an avalanche. Timely application of just the right kind of concentrated energy could reverse this avalanche and return one to the liberation of the clear light. However, in my case, the pull of my ego is strong and familiar, and affinity for the habitual inevitably pulled me away from the impersonal void and back into the process of reconstructing my psyche.

Almost the same instant that I realized what was happening, I knew that I had fallen past the point of no return. The momentum of my fall back into the ego was too strong to overcome. I began to fall through a sea of imagery collected during my current life. All the people, places, ideas, and symbols I've come to know were interlocking and flowing freely like a fluid. I experienced this vast sea of imagery outside of time, holding all of the pieces in awareness simultaneously. Its scope and beauty were absolutely overwhelming.

During this period, I experienced several profound philosophical realizations. I could see that the emptiness from which I had fallen was the fundamental state of perfection in the cosmos. All efforts to make one's own life as well as others' lives 'better,' culminate in this state. It is the attractor and the end of time, pulling the individual and the whole of life toward its perfection. I felt that the purpose of experiencing life is to cultivate the qualities and skill necessary to find the clear light and to stay in it, without falling back into routine, ego-dominated reality. This applies to the individual, as well as the collective of all living beings. I saw that the cultivation of good mental qualities are essential to the process. Intelligence, concentration, and ultimately wisdom are all necessary to make and then maintain contact with the clear light. In addition, compassionate behavior or right action on the individual and the collective scale, is also essential to the attainment and preservation of divine bliss.

These realizations felt like sacred gifts bestowed upon me by the experience. In my routine ego personality, I consider myself to 'know' these things already. I attempt to study and understand the teachings of the Buddha and practice meditation, although the turbulence of life often distracts me from these efforts, and too often I find myself wrapped in the business of seeking out sense pleasures. Experiencing the falling from the clear light and re-learning the significance and purpose of spiritual endeavors like the cultivation of good mental qualities and the performing of right actions on some very deep and real level of my psyche are invaluable. This kind of intensely felt experience serves to keep me in touch with what is most important in life and what is the closest expression of my true unimpeded nature.

After descending through the glistening sea of symbols and imagery, I began to encounter some turbulence. As the psyche reconstructs itself, it becomes more and more fixed and solid, in contrast to the complete lack of form of the void and the flowing, fluid nature of the sea of imagery. There is a tension felt around the crystalized parts of the psyche as the more fluid parts flow by, lapping and swirling into turbulent eddies. As I felt this tension building in intensity, I remember uttering the name of my most trusted teacher, WW. Her name serves me as protector during the unsteady phases of my psychedelic voyages.

As more and more of my psyche crystalized into a recognizable human form, my awareness across the sea of imagery began to hone in on one particular set of images. Soon I was surrounded by the naked bodies of copulating couples. I did not experience attraction or desire toward these images as I have before on LSD; I was simply an impartial observer. Suddenly I felt an intense connection with my own biological mother; I felt her presence and noted the bond of love flowing from me to her and from her to me. I realized that I was being cradled by the warm fleshy interior of a womb. I sat up in my hammock, pulling myself into the fetal position. . I could see my physical surroundings for the first time, but I was bathed in softly enchanting red, purple, and blue light. Soon I felt the enchanting light slipping away, leaving in its place a deep sense of renewed purity.

I had been reborn.
Just because you pepper on it some words like "emptiness," "psyche," "ego," "clear light" (some Gelug jargon DhammaWheel posters may not be familiar with), "unformed," "unbecome," doesn't make something Buddhist.

There isn't actually anything "Buddhist" in the above. It does not resemble Buddhist meditation from any mainstream tradition at all. Maybe Buddhist masters have been secretly teaching their closest students this nonsense for ages, but there is absolutely no proof. All in all, very high, very not Buddhist. "I doubt it."

Lastly, note his usage of cannabis in conjunction with DMT, something that you have been very quick to very systematically and harshly condemn before. Indeed, just previously you said this much:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:53 pmI have never treated them in this way, but as sacred tools.

- I don't do them on any other substances (like cannabis which I don't smoke at all any more)
- I do them alone
- I try to use them meditatively and to augment my practice
- I refer to serious work on them by people like Grof to help make sense of the experiences.

Clearly this is not the same way many used them including you.
That you do not mix psychedelics with recreational drugs, that you are a psychedelics purist, was something that was supposed to separate you from a recreational user. You may observe these things, but if they are so important, why link to the DMT account of someone so unlike you, who is a recreational user by your own metrics? He didn't do them alone either. He couldn't meditate during his high, or before it, by his own admission.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:24 am ~
The insights he has are deep, aligned with the dhamma and involve analysis of the workings is the mind at the level of fragmentation of self-identity. That you can't or don't want to acknowledge any of this is your own issue. However we can let people form their own objective opinions as to the merits of such accounts.
I note that Ceisiwr described the accounts as making 'lofty claims' which is the very opposite of your description, he just doesn't believe they were genuine insight.

The use is conjunction with smoking some cannabis is unfortunate and is one way by which they can descend into recreational use yes, but it is clear from the tone of the experience as a whole that it was not used in this way.

I contrast someone who uses them seriously and has a meditative practice and studies dhamma, from someone who uses them for example in the context of being a musician and doesn't meditate and 'wakes and bakes' on cannabis for years while sometimes tripping.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:14 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:24 am ~
The insights he has are deep, aligned with the dhamma and involve analysis of the workings is the mind at the level of fragmentation of self-identity.
They are not. Why don't you demonstrate how his insights are even vaguely related to the Buddhadharma? That you feel like your "self" has fragmented doesn't mean that you've had an insight into anatta.

How about you focus less on ad homing me and focus more on actually putting what you say on firm ground, so that it's not a bunch of incoherent ramblings? How are his insights "Buddhist?"
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:16 am How are his insights "Buddhist?"
This is very clear from reading it. How are they not Buddhist?
You have offered only that:
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:16 am Just because you pepper on it some words like "emptiness," "psyche," "ego," "clear light" (some Gelug jargon DhammaWheel posters may not be familiar with), "unformed," "unbecome," doesn't make something Buddhist.
So it's clear from the outset you want to dismiss it and any descriptors he uses for your own reasons. There is little point thus debating the issue with you and I have no intention or desire to.
If any one else other than you wants to address it I will be happy.

I asked Ceisiwr to break it down phenomenologically what he thinks is the issue with the account from a dhamma point of view, other than the means it was obtained but he has yet to answer on that.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't need to defend a negative claim. You need to defend a positive claim. This is logic 101.

If you say "There is a God," it is not up to me to prove that there is no God.

If you say "These insights are deep, aligned with the dhamma," it is not up to me to prove that they are not so aligned. You can defend you own wild claims, thank you very much. My work will come after that.

If you do not wish to defend your claims, I suggest that it is because they are indefensible and unsubstantiable. The "insight" simply isn't Buddhist and is certainly not of Nibbana.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:29 am I don't need to defend a negative claim. You need to defend a positive claim. This is logic 101.

If you say "There is a God," it is not up to me to prove that there is no God.

If you say "These insights are deep, aligned with the dhamma," it is not up to me to prove that they are not so aligned. You can defend you own wild claims, thank you very much. My work will come after that.

If you do not wish to defend your claims, I suggest that it is because they are indefensible and unsubstantiable. The "insight" simply isn't Buddhist and is certainly not of Nibbana.
Like I said I will debate the issue, but certainly not with you.
If you want to contribute something to the discussion though you can define what you think constitutes 'proof' in this context.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Coëmgenu »

Don't debate me then. Ignore what I say in response, but substantiate your own wild claims for the sake of your own argumentation on this thread that ayahuasca and other psychedelics are or can be profound aids on the Buddhist path and also can facilitate the concentrations and samadhis of the Buddhist sages and can maybe facilitate the attainment of Nibbana.

"Proof" would be having these experiences match the experiences of any Buddhist master who does not do these drugs and attains these states in the traditional way, regardless if we believe that he has or had authentic attainment. That conversation can happen after. Compare it also with the instructions of the Buddha and the descriptions of these states that he gives in the Pali Canon or in any other traditional Buddhist scripture. Compare the process of taking the drug with the process of attaining these states either in scripture or according to any Buddhist teacher who does not do psychedelics. Lastly, make sure that you compare the "insights" themselves that are gained as described in the source material to mainstream accounts that have nothing to do with psychedelics.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 am Don't debate me then. Ignore what I say in response, but substantiate your own wild claims for the sake of your own argumentation on this thread that ayahuasca and other psychedelics are or can be profound aids on the Buddhist path and also can facilitate the concentrations and samadhis of the Buddhist sages and can maybe facilitate the attainment of Nibbana.

"Proof" would be having these experiences match the experiences of any Buddhist master who does not do these drugs and attains these states in the traditional way, regardless if we believe that he has or had authentic attainment. That conversation can happen after. Compare it also with the instructions of the Buddha and the descriptions of these states that he gives in the Pali Canon or in any other traditional Buddhist scripture. Compare the process of taking the drug with the process of attaining these states either in scripture or according to any Buddhist teacher who does not do psychedelics.
We can start then with the video by Ven. Sarana posted above.

- Meditation teaches one to control the mind, and this cannot be achieved simply through use of psychedelics.

- His view however is that some of the states attained can overlap with those that occur during meditation. This is a view supported by many who have experience with both

- Therefore my view is that both done together can be mutually reinforcing and beneficial.

- For phenomenological analysis both myself and Ceisiwr have basically said the account given above matches some of what we see in Buddhist texts (that I infer by his calling it a 'lofty claim of experiencing some level of awakening'). However we differ as to the authenticity of the experience.

- We can infer that Ven. Sarana also views some such accounts and experiences as phenomenologically matching, however unlike Ceisiwr, but like myself views them as genuine by his saying there can be an overlap (although he did not address whether they could lead to awakening). However his issue was the lack of mind development required and accessibility of the experiences without the drug.

- We can view that both myself and by implication Ven. Sarana consider that a well trained mind could make use of such experiences as there is some overlap with those that occur naturally during meditation, as long as one did not become reliant on the drug (I note he did not advocate them, but merely did not deny there can be some experiential overlap between the states).
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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