Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

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Ceisiwr
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Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings everyone,

What is the strongest argument for and against dry insight leading to stream-entry?

Metta

:)
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


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SarathW
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by SarathW »

In my opinion:
- The dry insight could save time as you can waste a lot of time to perfect Jhana.
- Even if you perfected Jhana you are still at the mundane level.
- Dry insight can be attained by many people without moving away from society.
- Dry insight may be easier than the Samatha approach.
- Many people take Samatha as Nibbana and stop further progressing.

Further reading:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el351.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by DooDoot »

I imagine steam-entry literally refers to a feeling of momentum that occurs when when stressful sankharas dissolve. Its like the purity of consciousness flowing into spaces once occupied by defilements.

While steam-entry (breaking through) is indicative of insight, the stream itself appears indicative of samatha. For example, each jhana dissolving & moving into the next more subtle jhana sounds like a 'stream'. Refer to SN 36.11.

In other words, when genuine insight occurs (as described in SN 22.59), the house of cards or dominoes of defilements (kilesa-sankhara) must collapse. This collapse of defilements results in samatha. This collapsing of defilements is 'the stream'. Thus, any claims of vipassana without samatha appear to be fake news.

In short, since a stream is like a river of flowing water, it appears dry insight cannot lead to stream-entry. A log cannot flow down a dry river bed. The river must have cool refreshing water in it for a log to flow to the great ocean (as taught in SN 35.241).

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:01 am, edited 6 times in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by SarathW »

Thus, any claims of vipassana without samatha appear to be fake news. :smile:
The way I understand that Jhana and Samadhi are two different things.
Dry insight person gains the Samadhi but not Jhana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:51 pmThe way I understand that Jhana and Samadhi are two different things.
Any suttas to support these claims? SN 45.8 appears to say samma samadhi is the four jhanas.
SarathW wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:51 pmDry insight person gains the Samadhi but not Jhana.
Stream-entry requires the destruction of doubt in the Path. If the practitioner perceives not-self (anatta) but does not experience peace or samatha, then obviously doubt in the Path won't end. I imagine stream-entry without samatha is not possible.

For example, on another chatsite, many meditators claim to experience 'Dark Night of the Soul'. This terrifying loss of self without peace cannot be stream-entry. I think a stream-enterer must taste Nibbana.
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SarathW
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by SarathW »

I imagine stream-entry without samatha is not possible.
I agree.
In Satipathana up to "passambayam Kayayasankharam" is Samatha as I understand it.
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SteRo
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:06 pm Greetings everyone,

What is the strongest argument for and against dry insight leading to stream-entry?

Metta

:)
The point of departure is the strongest argument for and against insight leading to stream-entry.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by Pulsar »

Dear SteRo, dear wise one! I understand the OP's query, I once answered this question on my thread on "Misconceptions around Jhana". Right now I am too tired to dig it up but your response really got me discombobulated.
Dear master of (Vedas) of Mahayana!
can you please clarify, what you mean by your answer?

OP wrote
'Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:06 pm
Greetings everyone,

What is the strongest argument for and against dry insight leading to stream-entry?

Metta
SteRo responded
The point of departure is the strongest argument for and against insight leading to stream-entry
Can you pl. describe the point of departure? so we poor Theravadins at Dhamma Wheel may benefit, or is it plain Mahayana gibberish?
With love :candle:
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by SteRo »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:31 am ...
Can you pl. describe the point of departure?
Again you don't get the intended meaning of my words. Assuming that you understand the English expression "the point of departure" the "the point of departure" in the present context varies from individual to individual which is why it is the strongest argument for and against (dry) insight leading to stream-entry. Therefore since "the point of departure" is a variable it cannot be described.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
Pulsar
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by Pulsar »

SteRo wrote
Again you don't get the intended meaning of my words. Assuming that you understand the English expression "the point of departure" the "the point of departure" in the present context varies from individual to individual which is why it is the strongest argument for and against (dry) insight leading to stream-entry. Therefore since "the point of departure" is a variable it cannot be described
Point of departure I understood as given in the English dictionary 
the starting point of a line of thought or course of action; an initial assumption
I wanted to know the initial assumption, but it appears that you have a different understanding of this English expression, that gives you the permission to be an eel wriggler DN 1, or a smooth talking salesperson.
O well! :candle:
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

If you wish to understand, and not just debate, please read Sayādaw U Paṇḍita on the Vipassanā Jhānas.

There is no need to rehash this topic again here.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:56 pm If you wish to understand, and not just debate, please read Sayādaw U Paṇḍita on the Vipassanā Jhānas.

There is no need to rehash this topic again here.
Greetings Bhante,

Thank you for the link :)

Metta
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


Mettagūmāṇavapucchā
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Polar Bear
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by Polar Bear »

If by dry insight one simply means insight without jhana then the suttas provide enough information to make a decent case that dry insight as an avenue to stream entry is possible.

(Whether the specific forms of vipassana meditation coming out of Burma are an avenue to stream entry is a separate issue and not as easily answerable purely in reference to the suttas. But a lot of serious practitioners swear by them so I’d say they’re at least worth investigating and if one has the time giving them a serious shot in long retreat, ideally after purifying one’s virtue for a sufficient period of time to allow the mind to be receptive to the meditation and not embroiled in remorse and/or an over abundance of distracting worldly concerns and desires.)

In the majority of suttas where individuals actually attain stream entry or the dhamma-eye, which is arguable the same thing, the person who attains stream entry or the dhamma-eye does so while listening to a discourse, not while in meditation.

At a minimum this suggests that one does not need to be in a jhana or have just exited jhana in order to realize stream entry, and in many accounts the person who enters the stream is an ordinary lay person who is unlikely to have formal meditation experience.

See The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi


https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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DooDoot
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by DooDoot »

Polar Bear wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:17 pmIf by dry insight one simply means insight without jhana....
I don't recall the above has been specified.
Polar Bear wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:17 pm See The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi
The above appears not relevant to the topic because samatha occurs prior to jhana. In short, the experience of insight without the experience of peace/calm cannot be stream-entry because faith in the path to Nibbana cannot arise. A stream-enterer tastes the Nibbana of selflessness.

Regards :smile:
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Re: Dry Insight and Stream-Entry

Post by Polar Bear »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:26 am
I certainly think freedom from the five hindrances and therefore a significant degree of tranquility and pliability of the mind is required for stream entry, just not necessarily to a jhanic level. The OP did not specify the degree of samatha they would deem exclusive of a “dry” approach so my statement is a conditional one, I.e. if by “dry” one means lacking jhana but not necessarily a calm mind free of the hindrances, then a “dry” insight resulting in stream entry seems within the realm of possibility.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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